Jesus of Gamala
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28-01-2014, 10:50 AM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2014 10:56 AM by Deltabravo.)
Jesus of Gamala
I heard about Joe Atwill on another forum and read his book. I was surprised by his theory because I had never heard of it before. That was a couple of months ago. One interesting aspect of Atwill's theory is that he refers to the writings of Josephus and particularly stories told by Josephus in which he mixes up the names of people so you have to guess who is who. In one of Josephus' stories he actually talks of a Jesus in Jerusalem who did good deeds etc.

Atwill doesn't discuss this in his book but suggests that the "real" Jesus is Eleazor, or Lazarus, one of the leaders of the Jewish revolt.

I then came here after coming across Ralph Ellis so I googled him and found he had posted a lot here. I did not realize at first that the character he says is the real Jesus is Jesus of Gamala and that this historical figure is mentioned in the Jewish Encyclopedia http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...-ben-gamla

The theory that this is the historical person behind Jesus Christ is not new nor is it Ralph Ellis' idea, although he "fleshes" it out. Even Wiki has a page on it(which means it must be true!): John of Gamala was, according to Luigi Cascioli, an Italian ex-seminarian and now an atheist, a person whom the Catholic Church deliberately conflated with Jesus to build up their religion. Cascioli claims that his book The Fable of Christ is a decisive collection of proof demonstrating that Jesus is the result of manipulation and falsification of documents which in reality refer to Joshua of Gamala

"Yehoshua ben Gamla (or Joshua son of Gamla) was a Jewish high priest who officiated in about 64 CE. He married the rich widow Martha of the high-priestly family Boethos (Yeb. vi. 4), and she by bribing Jannai secured for him the office of high priest (Yeb. 61a; Yoma 18a; comp. "Ant." xx. 9, § 4). Although Yehoshua himself was not a scholar, he was solicitous for the instruction of the young, and provided schools in every town for children over five years of age, earning thereby the praises of posterity (B. B. 21a). The two lots used on the Day of Atonement, hitherto of boxwood, he made of gold (Yoma iii. 9). Yehoshua did not remain long in office, being forced, after a year, to give way to Matthias ben Theophil ("Ant." xx. 9, § 7).

According to the Talmud (tractate Bava Bathra 21a) he is regarded as the founder of the institution of formal Jewish education for children as young as 6 years old.

Although no longer High Priest, Yehoshua remained one of the leaders of Jerusalem. Together with the former high priest Ananus ben Ananus and other men of rank, he opposed, without success, the election of Phinehas b. Samuel (68) as high priest ("B. J." iv. 3, § 9). Josephus reports that Yehoshua was an "intimate friend", who reported a plot to replace Josephus as general of Galilee to Josephus' father. Because his father wrote to him of the plot, Josephus was able to resist it ("Life" 204-205).

Yehoshua attempted peaceably to prevent the fanatic and pugnacious Idumeans from entering Jerusalem during the Zealot Temple Siege. After they had come into possession of the city, these fanatics took bloody vengeance on him, by executing him, as well as Ananus, as traitors to their country (68) ("B. J." iv. 5, § 2).

Bibliography: In addition to the authorities mentioned above, Derenbourg, Histoire de la Palestine, p. 248; Grätz, in Monatsschrift, xxx. 59; Strassburger, Gesch. der Erziehung bei den Israeliten, p. 20; Schürer, Gesch. der Juden, i. 584, 618; ii. 221, 424.
References

This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: "Joshua ben Gamla". Jewish Encyclopedia. 1901–1906."


Whatever one thinks of revisionism or Atwill or Ellis, I am very puzzled that at my age I am hearing of this guy for the first time because his life is a pretty close match to the tale of Jesus and if the Romans changed it around just a bit one has the story of Jesus.
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28-01-2014, 10:55 AM
RE: Jesus of Gamala
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28-01-2014, 11:15 AM
RE: Jesus of Gamala
Is that how you treat horses? I am new here so I don't understand what you are doing. Don't you like animals?
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28-01-2014, 11:29 AM
RE: Jesus of Gamala
It's a dead horse that he's beating.

It seems as if everyone has their own favorite "jesus" to cast in the role, doesn't it?
This should tell you that the whole thing is a pile of shit.

For fun, consider this little tale from The Jewish War.

http://sites.fas.harvard.edu/~jwhst125/h...Ananus.htm

Quote:But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

Compare the reported actions of the Procurator Albinus with the later reported (invented?) actions of the Prefect Pilate as told in the original story...."Mark."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=NLT

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28-01-2014, 11:33 AM
RE: Jesus of Gamala
(28-01-2014 11:15 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Is that how you treat horses? I am new here so I don't understand what you are doing. Don't you like animals?

I want to make it absolutely clear, I am an atheist, I don't believe there was a godman called Jesus but there were plainly other people who were close to a figure of Jesus in Judea in the first century AD with ideas like those of Jesus. In my studies, which are exhaustive (I have watched at least three Ralph Ellis Youtube videos) I have come to the conclusion that the closest candidate is Jesus of Gamala.

I also want to say that I am entirely opposed to any cruelty of any sort to animals, particularly horses which is a very serious matter: http://www.ispca.ie/rescue_cases/view/co...to_a_horse

Bowing
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28-01-2014, 11:34 AM
RE: Jesus of Gamala
(28-01-2014 11:15 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Is that how you treat horses? I am new here so I don't understand what you are doing. Don't you like animals?
It's a visual depiction of the idiom "beating a dead horse"; it means that this topic has been discussed to death on this forum. Smile

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28-01-2014, 11:39 AM
RE: Jesus of Gamala
"In my studies, which are exhaustive (I have watched at least three Ralph Ellis Youtube videos)"


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28-01-2014, 11:47 AM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2014 12:15 PM by Chas.)
RE: Jesus of Gamala
(28-01-2014 11:33 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  ... In my studies, which are exhaustive (I have watched at least three Ralph Ellis Youtube videos) I have come to the conclusion that the closest candidate is Jesus of Gamala.

That is hilarious. First, that you think that that is exhaustive research, and second that you don't realize that Ralph Ellis is a charlatan.


Or was that intentional humor? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-01-2014, 12:03 PM
RE: Jesus of Gamala
I thought I detected a bit of sarcasm when deltabravo talked about his (her?) "exhaustive" studies. Please tell me it was MEANT to be funny...
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28-01-2014, 12:04 PM
RE: Jesus of Gamala
(28-01-2014 11:33 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(28-01-2014 11:15 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Is that how you treat horses? I am new here so I don't understand what you are doing. Don't you like animals?

I want to make it absolutely clear, I am an atheist, I don't believe there was a godman called Jesus but there were plainly other people who were close to a figure of Jesus in Judea in the first century AD with ideas like those of Jesus. In my studies, which are exhaustive (I have watched at least three Ralph Ellis Youtube videos) I have come to the conclusion that the closest candidate is Jesus of Gamala.

I also want to say that I am entirely opposed to any cruelty of any sort to animals, particularly horses which is a very serious matter: http://www.ispca.ie/rescue_cases/view/co...to_a_horse

Bowing

I'm assuming you're not English/American/whatever?
As Vosur previously said, it's just a saying "beating a dead horse" which usually implies that the subject in question is useless and/or there's no point in discussing it.
No real animal abuse in the process.

Use this link for a better understanding:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph...ad%20horse

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