"Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
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26-08-2011, 05:37 PM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2011 07:48 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(26-08-2011 03:59 PM)angry_liberal Wrote:  However the idea that the Essenes were influenced by Buddhism seems like a New Age fantasy to me. If there is some real evidence for it I would be fascinated.

This fella seems to be fascinated by the possibility. I only find it of passing academic interest now, although 20-30 years ago back in the day when I was 15-25 yo I also would've found it fascinating.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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26-08-2011, 07:01 PM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(26-08-2011 05:37 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-08-2011 03:59 PM)angry_liberal Wrote:  However the idea that the Essenes were influenced by Buddhism seems like a New Age fantasy to me. If there is some real evidence for it I would be fascinated.

This fella seems to be fascinated by the possibility. I only find it of passing academic interest now, although 20-30 years back when I was 15-25 yo I also would've found it fascinating.

Good link...thanks.
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26-08-2011, 07:10 PM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(24-08-2011 03:45 AM)nontheocrat Wrote:  Good point Mark. I can't help but laugh when a Christian boasts how fantastic Jesus is. I can't help but ask "based on what?"

Nothing! He was a myth.
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27-08-2011, 04:50 AM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi, thanks for your input. I hadn't heard or read about these 3 categories.
Actually I made them up because they seem real to my experience. I think the belief structure of Christians is of course more diverse but three was enough detail for my point.

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I think one of the reasons there are so many different interpretations of "Jesus'" teachings is "he" expressed "himself" so poorly. Also, the teachings are often inconsistent. Compare "Jesus" to a modern philosopher. You won't find poorly expressed and inconsistent teachings from the Dalai Lama. Nor will you find grossly immoral statements from the Dalai Lama.
Well you clearly haven't read any postmodern philosophers. Actually you have not missed anything. Their motivation seems to be in general that they don't like science so they attack the notion of Truth. The worst ones then express this in such convoluted terms that some people can study what they believe is deep for ages before they realize it is rubbish. Check out the Sokal affair for an expose.

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  The sayings of Jesus are what they are, and taken as a whole, they are rather pathetic. I admit I haven't read C S Lewis' book (only exerts). I'm sure he's only putting a spin on "Jesus" ie looking at him through rose coloured glasses.
At the very least I don't think you understand your enemy. Furthermore I do think there are some spiritual truths in Christianity that are perfectly accessible to anyone. They probably are unhealthy if taken to an extreme and are probably not original. Unfortunately they are not generally in my experience practiced by Christians.

The key to understanding Jesus in the gospels is probably to think about people you don't like:
  • A Christian who boasts about how many souls he has saved for Jesus.
  • A Muslim who boasts how much zakat he has paid to the poor.
  • A spammer who keeps posting the same compilation of meaningless doctored images with a vague but incoherent message of "I hate atheism".
  • An atheist who boasts about how intelligent he is because he never fell for any of that religious rubbish.

Now think about the people you know and like. Okay maybe you have some friends who are just so amazingly awesome that you don't mind never getting a word in edgeways. Please exclude those. I bet all the rest have something in common. They show an interest in how you are doing, they congratulate you when you succeed and they ask "Mark how is it going?".

Now the first group of people are all putting themselves forward. The second group of people are all putting you before themselves at least a little bit. A lot of Jesus' message is about putting other people before yourself.

I could even say that although this is Jesus' main message, he counterbalances it in the Mary and Martha story (Luke 10:38-42).

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'll post a few more unhealthy Jesus teachings.


Jesus said,
“How happy are you who are poor; yours is the kingdom of God” (Luke 6:20 NJB), and,
“But alas for you who are rich: you are having your consolation now” (Luke 6:24 NJB).
In Mark, Jesus’ advice to a wealthy man is the following,
“Go and sell everything you own and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me” (Mark 10:21 NJB).

Jesus stated the real riches were in heaven and you wouldn’t get them if you had wealth on earth. He said poverty itself was a virtue and being poor will make you happy. He commanded his followers to give up material possessions to follow an ideology. This advice was contrary to human nature and to common sense.

To give away all one’s possessions compromises a person’s security, occupation, health, and self-esteem. It compromises the family unit too. People from all cultures and in all ages have known money is something that adds quality to life. Nearly all of us like money, and Christians are no different.

Most poor people are just unfortunate, but some of them have squandered opportunities or don’t have the life skills to help themselves. To give all one’s money to them may not be in their best interest. If too many people gave all their money to the poor the very structure of society would crumble. Society would end up in some kind of cyclical communism. The poor would cease to be poor and therefore give to the former-rich, then the cycle would repeat. If everyone stopped working to follow an ideology money would be valueless as there would be no commodities or services to buy.
The point of the story is that that one individual cared more about money than his father, mother, wife, children and friends. Jesus was challenging him to prove that he could break that bond of greed.

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  To dream about a rich existence in the afterlife encourages people to be content with their lot in life. Many Christians have accepted poverty and oppression, meekly imagining they will be rewarded with paradise in heaven, because of Jesus’ words.

I think I know why these words have been put in Jesus’ mouth. Churches have always encouraged people to be poor because poor people are easier to control. Also, the poorer someone is, the easier it is for churches to take what money they do have off them.


Consider the following:
“When an unclean spirit goes out of someone it wanders through waterless country looking for a place to rest, and not finding one it says, "I will go back to the home I came from." But on arrival, finding it swept and tidied, it then goes off and brings seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and set up house there, and so that person ends up worse off than before” (Luke 11:24-27 NJB).

Today we successfully treat “evil spirits” with epileptic and anti-psychotic medications that change the biochemistry of the brain. The presence of “evil spirits” is recognized as a superstitious and ignorant delusion, and is not seriously thought of as fact, except in the lunatic religious fringe. If Jesus had been God he would not have been superstitious or ignorant.
I agree with you on these points. I am not so sure about C.S. Lewis style Christianity. What I think about C.S.Lewis style Christianity depends a lot on whether there really is a Holy Spirit.

If Christianity were true then we are only seeing the ugly externals. We are not seeing people's internal struggles as they struggle with becoming better people. We are unable at least at the time to distinguish the great leaders from the great monsters within the Church. We are unable to distinguish the saints from the frauds. But when Jesus comes back he would sweep all that away and the spiritual reality would be revealed.

If Christianity is false then all that is bunkum and a very sorry waste of time. St. Paul said something to the same effect. (Cannot find the quote just now.) However I disagree with Paul. If Christianity is wrong we could just go about our lives, trying to live them as virtuously and wisely as possible. I don't see what would be so bad about that. Even to live and suffer is better than not to live at all. I just have a little bit of trouble keeping my temper when I see how much pain and suffering is caused by earthly Christianity, which is the only bit I can see.
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27-08-2011, 04:16 PM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2011 04:59 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'll post a few more unhealthy Jesus teachings.

I'm just not reading these the same way you do.

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “How happy are you who are poor; yours is the kingdom of God” (Luke 6:20 NJB)

Since you have no tangible assets in this world, you have a unique opportunity, almost an unfair advantage, to recognize that this all bullshit. Then you have entered the Kingdom of Heaven. Those homeless bums, disciples and saints in waiting.

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “But alas for you who are rich: you are having your consolation now” (Luke 6:24 NJB).

Corollary to the previous premise. Since you have amassed such an impressive collection of irrelevant bullshit that you feel obliged to protect, you are at a disadvantage when it comes to recognizing that this is all bullshit. You have surrendered to hedonism. See also, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. - Mark 10:25 KJV."

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Go and sell everything you own and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me” (Mark 10:21 NJB).

See above. It's the same point reiterated over and over again and I'm pretty sure it's the same point Buddhism keeps trying to make.

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  To give away all one’s possessions compromises a person’s security, occupation, health, and self-esteem. It compromises the family unit too. People from all cultures and in all ages have known money is something that adds quality to life. Nearly all of us like money, and Christians are no different.

I think it's just a metaphor cautioning us of the risks of becoming attached to these shiny baubles we seem to like to collect. To paraphrase Trent Reznor, "Everything I know goes away in the end."

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “When an unclean spirit goes out of someone it wanders through waterless country looking for a place to rest, and not finding one it says, "I will go back to the home I came from." But on arrival, finding it swept and tidied, it then goes off and brings seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and set up house there, and so that person ends up worse off than before” (Luke 11:24-27 NJB).

Again, I read this one as just another cautionary metaphor. Just cause I think I've stared down the abyss, I better not relax. Fucker could just be regrouping to come back at me sevenfold.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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28-08-2011, 05:40 PM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(27-08-2011 04:50 AM)angry_liberal Wrote:  
(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi, thanks for your input. I hadn't heard or read about these 3 categories.
Actually I made them up because they seem real to my experience. I think the belief structure of Christians is of course more diverse but three was enough detail for my point.

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I think one of the reasons there are so many different interpretations of "Jesus'" teachings is "he" expressed "himself" so poorly. Also, the teachings are often inconsistent. Compare "Jesus" to a modern philosopher. You won't find poorly expressed and inconsistent teachings from the Dalai Lama. Nor will you find grossly immoral statements from the Dalai Lama.
Well you clearly haven't read any postmodern philosophers. Actually you have not missed anything. Their motivation seems to be in general that they don't like science so they attack the notion of Truth. The worst ones then express this in such convoluted terms that some people can study what they believe is deep for ages before they realize it is rubbish. Check out the Sokal affair for an expose.

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  The sayings of Jesus are what they are, and taken as a whole, they are rather pathetic. I admit I haven't read C S Lewis' book (only exerts). I'm sure he's only putting a spin on "Jesus" ie looking at him through rose coloured glasses.
At the very least I don't think you understand your enemy. Furthermore I do think there are some spiritual truths in Christianity that are perfectly accessible to anyone. They probably are unhealthy if taken to an extreme and are probably not original. Unfortunately they are not generally in my experience practiced by Christians.

The key to understanding Jesus in the gospels is probably to think about people you don't like:
  • A Christian who boasts about how many souls he has saved for Jesus.
  • A Muslim who boasts how much zakat he has paid to the poor.
  • A spammer who keeps posting the same compilation of meaningless doctored images with a vague but incoherent message of "I hate atheism".
  • An atheist who boasts about how intelligent he is because he never fell for any of that religious rubbish.

Now think about the people you know and like. Okay maybe you have some friends who are just so amazingly awesome that you don't mind never getting a word in edgeways. Please exclude those. I bet all the rest have something in common. They show an interest in how you are doing, they congratulate you when you succeed and they ask "Mark how is it going?".

Now the first group of people are all putting themselves forward. The second group of people are all putting you before themselves at least a little bit. A lot of Jesus' message is about putting other people before yourself.

I could even say that although this is Jesus' main message, he counterbalances it in the Mary and Martha story (Luke 10:38-42).

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'll post a few more unhealthy Jesus teachings.


Jesus said,
“How happy are you who are poor; yours is the kingdom of God” (Luke 6:20 NJB), and,
“But alas for you who are rich: you are having your consolation now” (Luke 6:24 NJB).
In Mark, Jesus’ advice to a wealthy man is the following,
“Go and sell everything you own and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me” (Mark 10:21 NJB).

Jesus stated the real riches were in heaven and you wouldn’t get them if you had wealth on earth. He said poverty itself was a virtue and being poor will make you happy. He commanded his followers to give up material possessions to follow an ideology. This advice was contrary to human nature and to common sense.

To give away all one’s possessions compromises a person’s security, occupation, health, and self-esteem. It compromises the family unit too. People from all cultures and in all ages have known money is something that adds quality to life. Nearly all of us like money, and Christians are no different.

Most poor people are just unfortunate, but some of them have squandered opportunities or don’t have the life skills to help themselves. To give all one’s money to them may not be in their best interest. If too many people gave all their money to the poor the very structure of society would crumble. Society would end up in some kind of cyclical communism. The poor would cease to be poor and therefore give to the former-rich, then the cycle would repeat. If everyone stopped working to follow an ideology money would be valueless as there would be no commodities or services to buy.
The point of the story is that that one individual cared more about money than his father, mother, wife, children and friends. Jesus was challenging him to prove that he could break that bond of greed.

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  To dream about a rich existence in the afterlife encourages people to be content with their lot in life. Many Christians have accepted poverty and oppression, meekly imagining they will be rewarded with paradise in heaven, because of Jesus’ words.

I think I know why these words have been put in Jesus’ mouth. Churches have always encouraged people to be poor because poor people are easier to control. Also, the poorer someone is, the easier it is for churches to take what money they do have off them.


Consider the following:
“When an unclean spirit goes out of someone it wanders through waterless country looking for a place to rest, and not finding one it says, "I will go back to the home I came from." But on arrival, finding it swept and tidied, it then goes off and brings seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and set up house there, and so that person ends up worse off than before” (Luke 11:24-27 NJB).

Today we successfully treat “evil spirits” with epileptic and anti-psychotic medications that change the biochemistry of the brain. The presence of “evil spirits” is recognized as a superstitious and ignorant delusion, and is not seriously thought of as fact, except in the lunatic religious fringe. If Jesus had been God he would not have been superstitious or ignorant.
I agree with you on these points. I am not so sure about C.S. Lewis style Christianity. What I think about C.S.Lewis style Christianity depends a lot on whether there really is a Holy Spirit.

If Christianity were true then we are only seeing the ugly externals. We are not seeing people's internal struggles as they struggle with becoming better people. We are unable at least at the time to distinguish the great leaders from the great monsters within the Church. We are unable to distinguish the saints from the frauds. But when Jesus comes back he would sweep all that away and the spiritual reality would be revealed.

If Christianity is false then all that is bunkum and a very sorry waste of time. St. Paul said something to the same effect. (Cannot find the quote just now.) However I disagree with Paul. If Christianity is wrong we could just go about our lives, trying to live them as virtuously and wisely as possible. I don't see what would be so bad about that. Even to live and suffer is better than not to live at all. I just have a little bit of trouble keeping my temper when I see how much pain and suffering is caused by earthly Christianity, which is the only bit I can see.

Hi, thanks for your comments.

Re post modern philosophers....yeah, I haven't read them. Had to look up who they were actually. I should have written "most creditable modern philosophers..."

Concerning " my enemy " (? C S Lewis)...I don't consider anyone my enemy. I may disagree with people, that doesn't label them like this. I am not in a war...I am trying to reach out to people and share knowledge with them.

Re "A lot of Jesus' message is about putting other people before yourself." I agree some of it is. But a very large chunk of it isn't. A lot is didactic, and a lot is intolerant. I maintain that, taken as a whole, his teachings are very unhealthy.

I'm genuinely interested in who you think the great leaders of the church are or were. I'm not disagreeing with you, but interested.

Just so I understand you better, are you saying you think Jesus is coming back?

I agree with your last paragraph.
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28-08-2011, 06:00 PM
 
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(24-08-2011 11:19 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
(24-08-2011 11:13 AM)theophilus Wrote:  If you don't have a Bible with you here are two places you can read it online.

http://www.esvbible.org/Genesis+1/

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

thanks for the links.


There is no god; the Bible is religious propaganda, so abandon it. Find something else to which you can set your brain to analyzing. There are plenty of real world problems. Nit-picking Jesus propganada is silly. There was no guy named Jesus performing miracles. There are no miracles.

Discussing an imaginary god from the Bible is not helping alleviate the suffering caused by superstition and religion. Any Mormon missionary or Jehovah's Witness is evidence in support of my claim; they are eager to discuss Bible trivia. None of it leads to insight about the real world and the problems we face.

Think for yourself. Surely you can figure out ethical paradigms for yourself.

If you must read long books about alleged history, try "History of the World" by J. M. Roberts (Oxford University Press: 1993). It is a lot more accurate than the Bible, as is just about any other text on the history of civilization.
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28-08-2011, 07:17 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2011 08:45 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(27-08-2011 04:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'll post a few more unhealthy Jesus teachings.

I'm just not reading these the same way you do.

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “How happy are you who are poor; yours is the kingdom of God” (Luke 6:20 NJB)

Since you have no tangible assets in this world, you have a unique opportunity, almost an unfair advantage, to recognize that this all bullshit. Then you have entered the Kingdom of Heaven. Those homeless bums, disciples and saints in waiting.

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “But alas for you who are rich: you are having your consolation now” (Luke 6:24 NJB).

Corollary to the previous premise. Since you have amassed such an impressive collection of irrelevant bullshit that you feel obliged to protect, you are at a disadvantage when it comes to recognizing that this is all bullshit. You have surrendered to hedonism. See also, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. - Mark 10:25 KJV."

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Go and sell everything you own and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me” (Mark 10:21 NJB).

See above. It's the same point reiterated over and over again and I'm pretty sure it's the same point Buddhism keeps trying to make.

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  To give away all one’s possessions compromises a person’s security, occupation, health, and self-esteem. It compromises the family unit too. People from all cultures and in all ages have known money is something that adds quality to life. Nearly all of us like money, and Christians are no different.

I think it's just a metaphor cautioning us of the risks of becoming attached to these shiny baubles we seem to like to collect. To paraphrase Trent Reznor, "Everything I know goes away in the end."

(26-08-2011 05:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “When an unclean spirit goes out of someone it wanders through waterless country looking for a place to rest, and not finding one it says, "I will go back to the home I came from." But on arrival, finding it swept and tidied, it then goes off and brings seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and set up house there, and so that person ends up worse off than before” (Luke 11:24-27 NJB).

Again, I read this one as just another cautionary metaphor. Just cause I think I've stared down the abyss, I better not relax. Fucker could just be regrouping to come back at me sevenfold.

Jesus is saying you won't be happy, and you're going to run into trouble in the afterlife ( which he never proved exists)if you are rich. You'll only get into heaven if you are poor. Please note he says nothing about the problem with becoming emotionally attached to money. All he says is "don't be rich". I agree if we are too materialistic that is unhealthy, but "Jesus "is not sophisticated or articulate enough to say this. People, and particularly preachers, interpret this so-called teaching, but they're just making it up.

You too are "reading" ie "interpreting" the spirit story. Fair enough...but, really, you can't be sure this is what "jesus" meant. And...it can't be denied that talk of evil spirits is just primitive superstition...one can't criticise him for talking about them...but it does mean he wasn't an all knowing god.

Hey girlyman, I value yiour input. Do you agree with me?
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28-08-2011, 09:24 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2011 09:43 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(28-08-2011 06:00 PM)Araktsu Wrote:  
(24-08-2011 11:19 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
(24-08-2011 11:13 AM)theophilus Wrote:  If you don't have a Bible with you here are two places you can read it online.

http://www.esvbible.org/Genesis+1/

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

thanks for the links.


There is no god; the Bible is religious propaganda, so abandon it. Find something else to which you can set your brain to analyzing. There are plenty of real world problems. Nit-picking Jesus propganada is silly. There was no guy named Jesus performing miracles. There are no miracles.

Discussing an imaginary god from the Bible is not helping alleviate the suffering caused by superstition and religion. Any Mormon missionary or Jehovah's Witness is evidence in support of my claim; they are eager to discuss Bible trivia. None of it leads to insight about the real world and the problems we face.

Think for yourself. Surely you can figure out ethical paradigms for yourself.

If you must read long books about alleged history, try "History of the World" by J. M. Roberts (Oxford University Press: 1993). It is a lot more accurate than the Bible, as is just about any other text on the history of civilization.

I absolutely agree with you.

The problem ( for everyone ) is that Christians and even some non Christians still think that jesus was some sort of wise preacher who has lessons for all of us. You can't claim that for someone who says "love another" and then in the next breath "kill anyone who doesn't believe in me". We should expose this character for his immorality and his inconsistencies. I'm going to point out some more of his problemmatic techings...

The Inconsistent Jesus
Jesus said
“...the father is in me, and I in Him.” (John 10:38 NJB).
"I and my father are one." (John 14:30 NJB). We were told that he is a part of, and equal to his father. Yet Jesus also spoke of his father as someone else;
"...for the father is greater than I." (John 14:28 NJB)
"For God sent his son into the world not to condemn the world, but so that through him the world might be saved." (John 3:17 NJB). In the 4th century people murdered others because of disagreements over whether Jesus was God, son of God, or man. If the different authors of John had come to some consensus on who Jesus was maybe these fanatics wouldn’t have lost their lives and the Bible wouldn’t be so confusing.

Jesus said;
"Were I to testify on my own behalf, my testimony would not be valid." (John 5:31 NJB). This was followed a few chapters later by
"It is true that I am testifying on my own behalf, but my testimony is still valid...” (John 8:14 NJB).

Jesus said
"You have the poor with you always, but you will not always have me." (Matthew 26:11 NJB). Then he said
"Know that I am with you always, yes to the end of time." (Matthew 28:20 NJB)

Jesus said
"Love your enemies; bless them that curse you," (Matthew 5;44), but ignored his own advice by repeatedly denouncing his opposition...
"You brood of vipers, how can your speech be good when you are evil? For words flow out of what fills the heart." (Matthew 12:34 NJB)
"'Alas for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs that look handsome on the outside, but inside are full of the bones of the dead and every kind of corruption." (Matthew 23:27 NJB). One does not love and bless one’s enemies by insulting them.

Jesus said
“Blessed are the peacemakers: they shall be recognised as children of God.” (Matthew 5:9 NJB). He then said
“'Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword.” (Matthew 10:34 NJB) and
“... if you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” (Luke 22:36 NJB)

The Bible said
“These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them as follows: 'Do not make your way to gentile territory, and do not enter any Samaritan town; go instead to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.” (Matthew 10:5-6 NJB). Then Jesus contradicted himself
“Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28:19 NJB).

There were obviously too many different authors putting words in Jesus’ mouth. A public figure that was reported as making these gaffs today would be picked to pieces and laughed at by the public.
A Forgiving Jesus?

Jesus preached forgiveness;
“Then Peter went up to him and said, 'Lord, how often must I forgive my brother if he wrongs me? As often as seven times?' Jesus answered, 'Not seven, I tell you, but seventy-seven times.” (Matthew 18:21-22 NJB). This was unsound advice, as demonstrated by the fact the Vatican has repeatedly forgiven their paedophile priests and let them loose in another parish to find fresh victims. I have many Christian patients who repeatedly forgive their abusive partners only to be abused once again.

Jesus broke his own rules;
“And he said to them, “to you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside all things come in parables, so that seeing they may perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them.” (Mark 4:11-13 NKJ). Jesus was discriminating against anyone who wasn’t part of his inner circle by saying he didn’t want them to understand him, nor did he want them to be forgiven. Obviously forgiveness was to be reserved only for certain people.

Jesus said
"And so I tell you, every human sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” (Matthew 12:31-32 NJB). If the Holy Spirit (whatever or whoever that is) was offended there was no forgiveness to be had.
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29-08-2011, 10:20 AM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(28-08-2011 05:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'm genuinely interested in who you think the great leaders of the church are or were. I'm not disagreeing with you, but interested.
I was not thinking of anyone in particular. I was just trying to say if Christianity is true then we cannot see into people's hearts (like God can) and work out who is saved and who damned because we cannot see their deepest motivations. Certainly a lot of church leaders ought to be damned given they way they have persecuted heretics, witches and so on.
On the other hand Christianity may be false in which case all Christians are at best a really sorry lot.

(28-08-2011 05:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Just so I understand you better, are you saying you think Jesus is coming back?
No I consider myself an atheist. But I am increasingly playing with seeing things from a Christian point of view (particularly C.S.Lewis). From this point of view Jesus' return is promised - though I still don't really see where the Americans get the rapture from.
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