"Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
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14-09-2011, 02:38 AM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(14-09-2011 02:27 AM)Organon Wrote:  
(14-09-2011 02:13 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(13-09-2011 10:40 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(12-09-2011 09:42 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Gee Theo, that's rather defeatist of you. Jesus is God right? Think of the joy in heaven if you convert me. Think of the browny points you'll get Theo. You might get an upgrade from business class to first class if you save my wicked ass. Big Grin

I can't convert or save anyone. All I can do is tell you what God has revealed through the Bible and then how you respond is up to you.

Don't admit that too loudly in church. You'll get a long sideward glance from the dude up the front who's trying to build up his flockBig Grin

Yeah and that's what it's all about. Build the flock, build the flock of brainless sheep, keep the coffers filled, protect the jobs of those that prey(sic) that the mindless ones keep coming and perpetuate the myth, the scam, keep them in fear of their afterlife, promise them all that they seek to comfort them in their quest for perfection of afterlife, no matter how full of shit their life on Earth is.

What a machine, the Christianity conveyor belt!

Wow man! You're on a roll LOL!
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14-09-2011, 08:11 PM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(13-09-2011 10:40 AM)theophilus Wrote:  I can't convert or save anyone. All I can do is tell you what God has revealed through the Bible and then how you respond is up to you.

I would argue that you have misconstrued and misrepresented the revelation.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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16-09-2011, 09:27 PM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2011 09:32 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
I'll keep things ticking over by posting a little more about our mate Jesus:

Jesus Failed to Deliver

There was a recurrent theme in Jesus’ teachings that a revolution was about to upset the existing order:
“The time has come he said and the kingdom of God is close at hand. Repent and believe the Good News” (Mark 1:15 NJB) and
“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is close at hand” (Matthew 4:17 NJB). The kingdom of God quite clearly wasn’t close at hand, as we’re now 2000 years down the track with no sign of it.

Jesus promised God was about to intervene in the affairs of the world in a dramatic and unmistakable way, that the dead would be brought back to life, injustices set right, the wicked punished, and the righteous rewarded. He said these things would happen within a generation:
“Amen, I say to you, all this will recoil on this generation” (Matthew 23:36 NJB).
“I tell you solemnly, before this generation passes away all these things will have taken place.” (Matthew 24:34 NJB). Christians have been waiting roughly one hundred generations now, and these promises are yet to be fulfilled.

Jesus repeatedly said that a believer could ask for anything through prayer and receive it:
“Ask and it will be given to you; search and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For the one who asks always receives; and the one who searches always finds; and to the one who knocks, will always have the door opened to him” (Matthew 7:7-8 NJB).
“I will tell you solemnly once again, if two of you on earth agree to ask anything at all, it will be granted to you by my father in heaven” (Matthew 18:19-20 NJB).
“If you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask what you will and you will get it.” (John 15:7 NJB). Over the last two thousand-odd years there have been literally millions of communities with genuine faith who have prayed for things, yet none of them have ever been able to prove divine intervention from Jesus. Most intelligent ten-year-olds today know things don’t happen just because you pray for them. Jesus’ words insult the modern reader’s intellect.

Some imaginative Christians make Jesus’ words mean that he will only listen to requests, but not necessarily act on them. This is a lame excuse. Christians should accept the obvious. Jesus is dead, so he’s not listening.

Jesus would have delivered on his promises by now if he were a god. He hasn’t, so he isn’t. For the Christian, miraculous things are always going to happen but never ever actually do happen. For them Jesus is still one day going to make an appearance, presumably with some excuse for being so late.

Jesus Undermined the Family Unit

Jesus was not always the family loving character he is often portrayed as. He said,
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother in law. A man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it” (Matthew 10:34-39 NJB). He said he was more important than parents, brethren, wife and children, and what is more, he hoped to create animosity between family members. It is universally recognized today that the family unit is the backbone of society. Jesus wanted to break up families and communities. Unfortunately, he has far too often been successful.

Jesus said,
"Anyone who loses his life for my sake, and for the sake of the gospel, will save it" (Mark 8:35 NJB). Once again, he was promising heaven, a place he never proved actually existed. He set an example for religious leaders and religious governments throughout history who have promised heaven as a ploy to gain the allegiance of people so they would fight for their god or their country. In reality there can be no benefit to someone if he loses his life, and what about the grieving family members left behind? Incidentally, Jesus could not have said this, as there were no Gospels in his lifetime.

Poorly Explained Dogma

The Gospel authors often expressed themselves poorly:

“Now has the Son of Man been glorified, and in him God has been glorified. If God has been glorified in him, God will in turn glorify him in himself, and will glorify him very soon” (John 13:32 NJB). This is so confusing it is almost meaningless!
“He also said, ‘What can we say the kingdom of God is like? What parable can we find for it? It is like a mustard seed which at the time of its sowing in the soil is the smallest of all the seeds on earth; yet once it is sown it grows into the biggest shrub of them all and puts out big branches so that the birds of the air can shelter in its shade.” (Mark 4:30-32 NJB). Many interpreters have tried to explain this, and the interpretations are quite different. Jesus must have had something specific in mind, but couldn’t make it clear.

Most of Jesus’ teachings raised more questions than were answered:
“Yes, I tell you again, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 19:24 NJB). Jesus was bad-mouthing the accumulation of wealth, yet was not sophisticated enough to tell us why. How rich is rich? Is it wealth itself or the pursuit of wealth that causes issues? What about the philanthropist who uses his money to help others? Is the Pope, the head of the richest institution in the world, excluded from the kingdom of heaven?

Many Christians confidently interpret his words. Anyone can do that.
“Jesus is encouraging us to not be materialistic. If we chase the dollar we neglect our spirituality. I think Jesus wants us to never forget to take time out from our busy lives to thank him for putting food on our table and showing us how to love one another. Jesus would also want us to also give a little money each week to his church so that others may share in the blessings of his message” (Mark Fulton, 2011). Imaginative interpretations such as this can sound very smooth, but have little relation to Jesus’ words.
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16-09-2011, 10:49 PM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
I didn't read the entirety of this thread, but I can't help but wonder if anyone here is even aware of the Synoptic Problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels

Of course there are contradictions in the Bible, they don't all use the same source.

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16-09-2011, 11:13 PM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(16-09-2011 10:49 PM)17thknight Wrote:  I didn't read the entirety of this thread, but I can't help but wonder if anyone here is even aware of the Synoptic Problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels

Of course there are contradictions in the Bible, they don't all use the same source.

Hi, you're link takes me to an article about the synoptic gospels, so I'm not sure what you mean by the "synoptic problem"
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17-09-2011, 06:28 PM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(16-09-2011 09:27 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “The time has come he said and the kingdom of God is close at hand. Repent and believe the Good News” (Mark 1:15 NJB) and
“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is close at hand” (Matthew 4:17 NJB). The kingdom of God quite clearly wasn’t close at hand, as we’re now 2000 years down the track with no sign of it.

I like KJB better here:
"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:15 KJB)
"And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 4:17 KJB)

A fundamental mistake Christians make is confusing "at hand" for "imminent". "At hand" is not "imminent", it is immediate, here and now. This could be heaven or this could be hell. Make of what you will. Or better yet, just leave it alone and make nothing of it at all.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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18-09-2011, 08:35 PM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(16-09-2011 11:13 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(16-09-2011 10:49 PM)17thknight Wrote:  I didn't read the entirety of this thread, but I can't help but wonder if anyone here is even aware of the Synoptic Problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels

Of course there are contradictions in the Bible, they don't all use the same source.

Hi, you're link takes me to an article about the synoptic gospels, so I'm not sure what you mean by the "synoptic problem"

Well, it deals with the picture on the right of that link, which is a serious problem for any historical scholar studying the Bible, that being: What are the sources for the Bible?

It is clear that each Gospel shares 1 or 2 sources with other Gospels, and there is the possiblity of an entirely alternate source (or even two, though that's a stretch).

People argue about "contradictions", but this is something long recognized. There aren't contradictions as much as there are varying uses of different sources.

Baiscally, the synoptic problem is: "Who wrote the Gospels?" and the answer comes down to about 3 sources.

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18-09-2011, 09:32 PM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(18-09-2011 08:35 PM)17thknight Wrote:  
(16-09-2011 11:13 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(16-09-2011 10:49 PM)17thknight Wrote:  I didn't read the entirety of this thread, but I can't help but wonder if anyone here is even aware of the Synoptic Problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels

Of course there are contradictions in the Bible, they don't all use the same source.

Hi, you're link takes me to an article about the synoptic gospels, so I'm not sure what you mean by the "synoptic problem"

Well, it deals with the picture on the right of that link, which is a serious problem for any historical scholar studying the Bible, that being: What are the sources for the Bible?

It is clear that each Gospel shares 1 or 2 sources with other Gospels, and there is the possiblity of an entirely alternate source (or even two, though that's a stretch).

People argue about "contradictions", but this is something long recognized. There aren't contradictions as much as there are varying uses of different sources.

Baiscally, the synoptic problem is: "Who wrote the Gospels?" and the answer comes down to about 3 sources.

Hi 17thknight. The question of who wrote the gospels is very interesting and fundamentally important. I know a bit on this, yet I have never heard a theory that "the answer comes down to about 3 sources," so you've got me interested. Why don't you start a thread on this topic? I will contribute.
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19-09-2011, 11:21 PM
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
(18-09-2011 09:32 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi 17thknight. The question of who wrote the gospels is very interesting and fundamentally important. I know a bit on this, yet I have never heard a theory that "the answer comes down to about 3 sources," so you've got me interested. Why don't you start a thread on this topic? I will contribute.

Well, the problem is that the sources are unknown. These aren't three (or four, possibly) identifiable people. It's more like "Source Q" which may be one person's oral narrative or perhaps a book of nothing but quotes from Jesus...The form the source takes is unknown.

So think of it this way. There's Agreements between Mark and Luke, but not Mark and Matthew. Therefore there is a similar source for Mark and Luke. There is also the opposite, which demonstrates a source shared by Mark and Matthew. Perhaps these authors knew each other, or each other's works. And there is a possible source Q that is beyond all of them.

It's extremely difficult to gauge, I tend to adhere to the "3 Source" or "Q Source" theory.

My point, mainly, is that scholars are well aware that these writers used different sources for their writings, may or may not have been aware of each other's writings, and that the Gospels will thus, naturally, say different things, omit different things, and contradict different things. It's exceptionally complex.

If you really want me to start a new thread, I suppose I could, but I'd like to wait until I have about an hour to hammer out a more coherent and well put together explanation of all this scholarly goop.

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19-09-2011, 11:51 PM
 
RE: "Jesus" really wasn't such a great guy!
Can someone please explain why when i hear the name Jesus I get enraged? It has always happened ever since i was little. I never understood that.
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