Jesus's genealogy problem
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15-01-2016, 05:27 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2016 05:34 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus's genealogy problem
(15-01-2016 09:59 AM)DerFish Wrote:  
(14-01-2016 09:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  But.... but....why is Joseph listed as his father? How does this even work. If Jesus is the son of god why is Joseph the father. God supposedly knocks up Mary with himself but Joseph is the father. Hummm. This simply doesn't make any sense. Yeah, yeah, I know....it's the Bible and the Bible is screwy.

When they wrote the genealogy they had not invented the idea of JC being God yet. later it was dubbed in "Joseph who was supposed as the father of Jesus"

Yep.

"Mark" and "John" didn't even bother documenting that God was Jeebus' father... because the idea hadn't been invented yet, and no interpolator could be bothered adding it.

Most Christians think Mark and John were eyewitnesses. Imagine being them, and talking to Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was claiming

"god fucked me!...I was a virgin, honest!"

and you didn't bother to document the fact!
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15-01-2016, 05:43 PM
RE: Jesus's genealogy problem
(15-01-2016 05:27 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Mark" and "John" didn't even bother documenting that God was Jeebus' father... because the idea hadn't been invented yet, and no interpolator could be bothered adding it.

Most Christians think Mark and John were eyewitnesses. Imagine being them, and talking to Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was claiming

"god fucked me!...I was a virgin, honest!"

and you didn't bother to document the fact!

The one that I find amusing is that Mary (or maybe Joseph depending on which story you read) was told directly that she would become pregnant while still a virgin and that this would be the son of god. Then, twelve years later when Jesus is found debating scholars about scripture both Mary and Joseph are amazed and don't understand how he can be so wise. HELLO! Remember all that "son of god" and "miraculous birth" stuff you went through. Apparently the annunciation wasn't all that memorable. It's almost like the authors just made it all up.

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16-01-2016, 06:57 AM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2016 07:01 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Jesus's genealogy problem
(15-01-2016 04:36 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(15-01-2016 04:26 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  This brings up the other problem with Jesus' birth (one of many)

Matthew places Jesus' home in Bethlehem and they move to Nazareth after coming back from their flight to Egypt fleeing from Herod.

Luke places Jesus' home in Nazareth, they go to Bethlehem for a census, and then go back to Nazareth after a month or so. (No Herod)

There was a preexisting Jewish prophesy that says that the messiah would come from the House of Bread (Beit Lechem), which is King David's house. A house, of course, is a line of genetic ancestry. The Christians misunderstood the text and thought that the city named after the House of Bread (Bethlehem) was to be the birthplace for the messiah. That's why they needed to place JC's birth in that particular city and wrote such a silly story to bring their character into line with what they thought was a valid messianic prophecy.

Of course, the city of the messiah's birth is irrelevant to the prophecy. Only the ancestral line matters.

I'm sure the Jews of that time must have heard of these stories and were just laughing their asses off because of those wacky Christians.

There's a real reason why there weren't a whole lot of Jews that bought into their goofy stories.

It's too bad more people aren't aware of things like this, we're literally seeing them just concoct a story in theses biblical passages and even making mistaken interpretations and putting that into their stories.

The author of Matthew had a real problem with interpreting things correctly as he puts Jesus' ass on two asses riding into Jerusalem later in his story, which is another scriptural misfire. Laugh out load

I can't look at nativity scenes the same way anymore, I see those and instantly think- they're making stuff up and can't decide which story to believe whenever I see the shepherds and wise men standing over Jesus' manger.

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16-01-2016, 06:59 AM
RE: Jesus's genealogy problem
(15-01-2016 05:43 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(15-01-2016 05:27 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Mark" and "John" didn't even bother documenting that God was Jeebus' father... because the idea hadn't been invented yet, and no interpolator could be bothered adding it.

Most Christians think Mark and John were eyewitnesses. Imagine being them, and talking to Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was claiming

"god fucked me!...I was a virgin, honest!"

and you didn't bother to document the fact!

The one that I find amusing is that Mary (or maybe Joseph depending on which story you read) was told directly that she would become pregnant while still a virgin and that this would be the son of god. Then, twelve years later when Jesus is found debating scholars about scripture both Mary and Joseph are amazed and don't understand how he can be so wise. HELLO! Remember all that "son of god" and "miraculous birth" stuff you went through. Apparently the annunciation wasn't all that memorable. It's almost like the authors just made it all up.

Made it all up!! What kind of shit are you talking?
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18-01-2016, 09:56 AM
RE: Jesus's genealogy problem
(15-01-2016 05:04 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I can think of two plausible but opposite arguments about this:

1. I don't even know my own genealogy any farther back than a couple of generations, and neither do most modern people. But our record-keeping is far superior to anything they had back then. It seems unlikely that anyone living 1000 years after King David would know their genealogy accurately going back that far.

2. But maybe this is because we don't really care that much about our genealogies. Maybe it was of supreme importance back then, and people took great pains to document it.

I don't really know which of these is true, but if I were a betting man, I would put my money on #1.

You should bet on #2. Haven't you noticed how much of the Bible consists of genealogies?

(15-01-2016 05:27 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Mark" and "John" didn't even bother documenting that God was Jeebus' father... because the idea hadn't been invented yet, and no interpolator could be bothered adding it.

John begins his book by affirming the deity of Jesus.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
(John 1:1-4 ESV)


And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
(John 1:14 ESV)

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18-01-2016, 09:58 AM
RE: Jesus's genealogy problem
(18-01-2016 09:56 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(15-01-2016 05:04 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I can think of two plausible but opposite arguments about this:

1. I don't even know my own genealogy any farther back than a couple of generations, and neither do most modern people. But our record-keeping is far superior to anything they had back then. It seems unlikely that anyone living 1000 years after King David would know their genealogy accurately going back that far.

2. But maybe this is because we don't really care that much about our genealogies. Maybe it was of supreme importance back then, and people took great pains to document it.

I don't really know which of these is true, but if I were a betting man, I would put my money on #1.

You should bet on #2. Haven't you noticed how much of the Bible consists of genealogies?

(15-01-2016 05:27 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Mark" and "John" didn't even bother documenting that God was Jeebus' father... because the idea hadn't been invented yet, and no interpolator could be bothered adding it.

John begins his book by affirming the deity of Jesus.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
(John 1:1-4 ESV)


And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
(John 1:14 ESV)
Affirming or pretending?
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18-01-2016, 10:25 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2016 02:00 PM by Fatbaldhobbit.)
RE: Jesus's genealogy problem
(18-01-2016 09:56 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Haven't you noticed how much of the Bible consists of genealogies?

And atrocities like murder and rape and incest and genocide and slavery...

Nothing like the recipe for penicillin or a diagram of a printing press.

Nothing that couldn't have been written by semi-illiterate, desert savages.

(18-01-2016 09:56 AM)theophilus Wrote:  John begins his book by affirming the deity of Jesus.

Yes, "John". The last of the gospels. The one furthest from the time the supposed events happened. The most outlandish and supernatural of the gospels.

Why is "John" any more trustworthy than the writers of the Greek Myths?
Why is "John" more trustworthy than buddha?
Why is "John" more trustworthy than mohammed?

"John", the illiterate who could not read his own language, Aramaic, yet wrote a gospel in elegant, classically trained Greek.

This is your idea of a reliable source?

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18-01-2016, 02:05 PM
RE: Jesus's genealogy problem
Found an excellent article by Richard Carrier on the subject:

The Date of The Nativity in Luke

There is absolutely no way these two accounts can be reconciled. One of the things Carrier point out is that in

Luke 2:41- Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.

Contrasted with :

Matthew 2:22 -2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

Matthew has Joseph avoiding Jerusalem and Judea until after the entire ten year reign of Archelaus.

Luke has them going into Jerusalem every year for the passover!

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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18-01-2016, 08:02 PM
RE: Jesus's genealogy problem
(18-01-2016 02:05 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Found an excellent article by Richard Carrier on the subject:

The Date of The Nativity in Luke

There is absolutely no way these two accounts can be reconciled. One of the things Carrier point out is that in

Luke 2:41- Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.

Contrasted with :

Matthew 2:22 -2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

Matthew has Joseph avoiding Jerusalem and Judea until after the entire ten year reign of Archelaus.

Luke has them going into Jerusalem every year for the passover!

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18-01-2016, 08:17 PM
RE: Jesus's genealogy problem
(15-01-2016 05:43 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(15-01-2016 05:27 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Mark" and "John" didn't even bother documenting that God was Jeebus' father... because the idea hadn't been invented yet, and no interpolator could be bothered adding it.

Most Christians think Mark and John were eyewitnesses. Imagine being them, and talking to Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was claiming

"god fucked me!...I was a virgin, honest!"

and you didn't bother to document the fact!

The one that I find amusing is that Mary (or maybe Joseph depending on which story you read) was told directly that she would become pregnant while still a virgin and that this would be the son of god. Then, twelve years later when Jesus is found debating scholars about scripture both Mary and Joseph are amazed and don't understand how he can be so wise. HELLO! Remember all that "son of god" and "miraculous birth" stuff you went through. Apparently the annunciation wasn't all that memorable. It's almost like the authors just made it all up.

That's hysterical. I never thought of that. Laughat

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