Jesus should've come by now?
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03-12-2014, 12:14 PM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(03-12-2014 12:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ...
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. - verses 34 and 35
...
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. - verse 14

That's one of the points I raised--that the gospel will be preached worldwide before the return of Jesus Christ.

So, not only did Jesus fail to return before that generation passed away, but the spreading of the gospel worldwide within that same time frame also failed. Drinking Beverage

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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03-12-2014, 02:31 PM
Re: Jesus should've come by now?
So he said it, but he didn't mean it? Huh
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03-12-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
Jesus tried to come but got stopped at the border. God forgot to give him a passable fake passport.

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04-12-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(03-12-2014 12:14 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(03-12-2014 12:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ...
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. - verses 34 and 35
...
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. - verse 14

That's one of the points I raised--that the gospel will be preached worldwide before the return of Jesus Christ.

So, not only did Jesus fail to return before that generation passed away, but the spreading of the gospel worldwide within that same time frame also failed. Drinking Beverage

You are ducking from my point, which was that atheists frequently quote one verse and fail to bother to read a verse just down the page (scroll).

Also, this isn't the very first time I've heard Matthew and the "this generation" argument before. For one it can be taken implied as "this generation that experiences these things (like the gospel going worldwide)..." and a simple concordance search will show 4-6 different meanings for genea or "generation", one of which is AGE. This AGE or EON or CHURCH AGE between now and Christ's return will not pass away.

I want to make a personal comment here. I'm extremely bored of hearing about the many Bible "contradictions" which I've heard over and again for years, again "fresh" on this site. I'm also bored hearing people on this forum say how ignorant Christians are. Many millions of them have a devout faith and can also weed out "contradictions" and look up words in Greek or Hebrew or a concordance to better understand. What would really interest me is hearing atheists prove what they believe without resorting to "can't prove a negative" and "the Bible sucks". You can do better. I'd be fascinated to see instead, an in-depth defense of what you believe besides very old (yawn) attacks on what I know and believe, and who I know and believe! Remember, religious epistemologists have noted that Christianity is about trust/faith in a person and not a concept or ideology.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-12-2014, 12:06 PM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(04-12-2014 11:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are ducking from my point, which was that atheists frequently quote one verse and fail to bother to read a verse just down the page (scroll).

No, explaining what's wrong with your point is not ducking from it. I showed you how including the extra verse you cited actually supports the opposite of what you apparently think it does.

(04-12-2014 11:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Also, this isn't the very first time I've heard Matthew and the "this generation" argument before. For one it can be taken implied as "this generation that experiences these things (like the gospel going worldwide)..." and a simple concordance search will show 4-6 different meanings for genea or "generation", one of which is AGE. This AGE or EON or CHURCH AGE between now and Christ's return will not pass away.

Yeah, the multiple interpretations give apologists a field day. Too bad "God" doesn't know how to inspire a clearly written book. But anyway that totally ignores other verses such as:

Matthew 16:28
“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Please explain how that verse doesn't mean Jesus already failed to return when he was supposed to according to the bible.

(04-12-2014 11:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I want to make a personal comment here. I'm extremely bored of hearing about the many Bible "contradictions" which I've heard over and again for years, again "fresh" on this site. I'm also bored hearing people on this forum say how ignorant Christians are. Many millions of them have a devout faith and can also weed out "contradictions" and look up words in Greek or Hebrew or a concordance to better understand. What would really interest me is hearing atheists prove what they believe without resorting to "can't prove a negative" and "the Bible sucks". You can do better. I'd be fascinated to see instead, an in-depth defense of what you believe besides very old (yawn) attacks on what I know and believe, and who I know and believe! Remember, religious epistemologists have noted that Christianity is about trust/faith in a person and not a concept or ideology.

Some of this is a strawman. As for what you're asking people to do, they do so all the time. So you're either not paying attention or you're just not happy with their points that don't agree with yours.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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04-12-2014, 02:45 PM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(04-12-2014 12:06 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 11:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are ducking from my point, which was that atheists frequently quote one verse and fail to bother to read a verse just down the page (scroll).

No, explaining what's wrong with your point is not ducking from it. I showed you how including the extra verse you cited actually supports the opposite of what you apparently think it does.

(04-12-2014 11:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Also, this isn't the very first time I've heard Matthew and the "this generation" argument before. For one it can be taken implied as "this generation that experiences these things (like the gospel going worldwide)..." and a simple concordance search will show 4-6 different meanings for genea or "generation", one of which is AGE. This AGE or EON or CHURCH AGE between now and Christ's return will not pass away.

Yeah, the multiple interpretations give apologists a field day. Too bad "God" doesn't know how to inspire a clearly written book. But anyway that totally ignores other verses such as:

Matthew 16:28
“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Please explain how that verse doesn't mean Jesus already failed to return when he was supposed to according to the bible.

(04-12-2014 11:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I want to make a personal comment here. I'm extremely bored of hearing about the many Bible "contradictions" which I've heard over and again for years, again "fresh" on this site. I'm also bored hearing people on this forum say how ignorant Christians are. Many millions of them have a devout faith and can also weed out "contradictions" and look up words in Greek or Hebrew or a concordance to better understand. What would really interest me is hearing atheists prove what they believe without resorting to "can't prove a negative" and "the Bible sucks". You can do better. I'd be fascinated to see instead, an in-depth defense of what you believe besides very old (yawn) attacks on what I know and believe, and who I know and believe! Remember, religious epistemologists have noted that Christianity is about trust/faith in a person and not a concept or ideology.

Some of this is a strawman. As for what you're asking people to do, they do so all the time. So you're either not paying attention or you're just not happy with their points that don't agree with yours.

No, you added an incorrect interpretation of one Matthew verse to another incorrect one for a second verse.

I would disagree with you about a clear book. First, because many words in English and other languages have multiple meanings.

Did you know that right after the verse you've cited, some of the apostles do get to see and hear from God the Father, Moses, Elijah and a transfigured Jesus? And before you disagree, it doesn't say the son of man coming OUT OF His Kingdom to return to Earth, it says IN His Kingdom. We fundies take every word more seriously than you take every phrase. Do you disagree? Do you take the Bible and Bible study as seriously and devoutly as we Q do?

My last point isn't a straw man. Why? Because I've seen in my research looking around these forums, now a member for some time, that constantly atheists play the "Can't prove a negative" card and so on rather than giving proof for what they believe. Now, you don't have to prove what you believe either, but it's a belief until you do and by blind faith until you do. I imagine some at this forum will disagree with that last statement. Dodgy

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-12-2014, 03:17 PM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(04-12-2014 02:45 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No, you added an incorrect interpretation of one Matthew verse to another incorrect one for a second verse.

I disagree. What's your interpretation of them?

(04-12-2014 02:45 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I would disagree with you about a clear book. First, because many words in English and other languages have multiple meanings.

So then you're saying that your god is incapable of choosing words that have no ambiguity?

(04-12-2014 02:45 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Did you know that right after the verse you've cited, some of the apostles do get to see and hear from God the Father, Moses, Elijah and a transfigured Jesus? And before you disagree, it doesn't say the son of man coming OUT OF His Kingdom to return to Earth, it says IN His Kingdom. We fundies take every word more seriously than you take every phrase. Do you disagree? Do you take the Bible and Bible study as seriously and devoutly as we Q do?

Well, for someone that takes every word so seriously, you missed a very important one: "coming". At best, the example you provided of Jesus supposedly in his kingdom is simply Peter, James, and John seeing Jesus supposedly in his kingdom (and frankly that's a big stretch), not coming in his kingdom. "Coming" clearly means "returning" because, at this point in the bible, Jesus is already here. He must first leave in order to be able to come.

(04-12-2014 02:45 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  My last point isn't a straw man. Why? Because I've seen in my research looking around these forums, now a member for some time, that constantly atheists play the "Can't prove a negative" card and so on rather than giving proof for what they believe. Now, you don't have to prove what you believe either, but it's a belief until you do and by blind faith until you do. I imagine some at this forum will disagree with that last statement. Dodgy

Sorry if you don't like reality and the way logic works. It's a fact that you can't prove a negative. So no one can prove that god does not exist. But this is a strawman because I and most people here don't claim god does not exist. We claim that there is no evidence for a god and so we therefore don't have a belief that a god exists. Regarding that, plenty of solid reasons are given constantly by many people here. So your claim that you hear nothing but excuses and attacks is in fact a strawman.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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04-12-2014, 03:25 PM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
I feel the fact that we can prove scientifically that Adam and Eve, Noahs Ark, The Babel story thing about the languages are bullshit, sort of works as evidence there is no christian god...
As a christian, you won't find any proof which is equally convincing to stay/become christian.
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04-12-2014, 04:06 PM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(04-12-2014 11:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-12-2014 12:14 PM)Impulse Wrote:  So, not only did Jesus fail to return before that generation passed away, but the spreading of the gospel worldwide within that same time frame also failed. Drinking Beverage

You are ducking from my point, which was that atheists frequently quote one verse and fail to bother to read a verse just down the page (scroll).

Also, this isn't the very first time I've heard Matthew and the "this generation" argument before. For one it can be taken implied as "this generation that experiences these things (like the gospel going worldwide)..." and a simple concordance search will show 4-6 different meanings for genea or "generation", one of which is AGE. This AGE or EON or CHURCH AGE between now and Christ's return will not pass away.

I want to make a personal comment here. I'm extremely bored of hearing about the many Bible "contradictions" which I've heard over and again for years, again "fresh" on this site. I'm also bored hearing people on this forum say how ignorant Christians are. Many millions of them have a devout faith and can also weed out "contradictions" and look up words in Greek or Hebrew or a concordance to better understand. What would really interest me is hearing atheists prove what they believe without resorting to "can't prove a negative" and "the Bible sucks". You can do better. I'd be fascinated to see instead, an in-depth defense of what you believe besides very old (yawn) attacks on what I know and believe, and who I know and believe! Remember, religious epistemologists have noted that Christianity is about trust/faith in a person and not a concept or ideology.

I love the apologists approach as well, "No, what that scripture ACTUALLY meant was blah blah blah."..must be nice to cherry pic which scriptures are parables, and which are simply misunderstood....

The Bible claims that Jesus made the following comment:

Matthew 16:28

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Jesus also advised against going to court over someone who steals something and also told people not to store up stocks or reserves for the future. Clearly, he thought the end was very near.

Likewise, Paul advised followers not to marry and that the end time was near. In this scripture he obviously believes that some of the people he is talking to will still be alive at the second coming.

I Thessalonians 4: 16-18

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

The obvious fact is that the second coming was not forthcoming at that time, or even close to being near. The 2000-year delay is a strong piece of evidence that Christianity is a failed religion.

The following quote from Stephen L. Harris, Professor Emeritus of Humanities and Religious Studies at California State University- Sacramento, completes this point with a devastating argument. Remember that Jesus was a Jew who had no intention to deviate from the Hebrew scriptures:

“Jesus did not accomplish what Israel’s prophets said the Messiah was commissioned to do: He did not deliver the covenant people from their Gentile enemies, reassemble those scattered in the Diaspora, restore the Davidic kingdom, or establish universal peace (cf.Isa. 9:6–7; 11:7–12:16, etc.). Instead of freeing Jews from oppressors and thereby fulfilling God’s ancient promises—for land, nationhood, kingship, and blessing—Jesus died a “shameful” death, defeated by the very political powers the Messiah was prophesied to overcome. Indeed, the Hebrew prophets did not foresee that Israel’s savior would be executed as a common criminal by Gentiles, making Jesus’ crucifixion a “stumbling block” to scripturally literate Jews. (1 Cor.1:23)”

Jesus’ immediate followers, mostly his 12 disciples, probably did not immediately identify this failure, because after Jesus’ body was likely stolen and concealed, a rumor spread that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead. A sense of optimism overcame their grief about his execution and renewed some hope that he was a true messiah. If they had known then that there was to be no return in the near or long-term future, they likely would have abandoned any further activity. Despite this resurgence in their faith, they never agreed with Paul’s concept of Jesus as being divine. Anything written in the Bible to suggest that they did is probably a result of later editing by some of Paul’s followers. Such a belief would have been an exceptional departure from the Jewish faith.

That is all pretty straight forward...false messiah, not that there is such a thing as a messiah anyway, all a fabrication...and yet you fell for it, hook, line and sinker..aren't you the bright boy?

"I'd be fascinated to see instead, an in-depth defense of what you believe"

Easy, there exists not one shred of actual evidence that jesus was the son of a god, there exists no empirical evidence of a god, and thus, based on that lack of evidence; atheists don't believe in god.

Now you can't paint atheists with a wide brush as there are all types of different people having distinct different views, some even lean a bit towards the pantheism side, and if I was to assert that "something" is out there, or there exists "some type of creative energy" it would most likely be some version of that. But the Xtian abrahamic anthropocentric, caring personal god does not exist, I can say that, because we know of this "god" because of the bible...the same book that is riddled with the three Fs; Fiction, Forgery and Fantasy...so since the fairy tale can be traced back to its inception, and be disproven in a plethora of ways...it would seem the Xtian god is a myth, JUST like all of the gods before him, all man made concoctions...like Romulus for example.

Certainly you can do better than this...

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-12-2014, 12:02 PM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(04-12-2014 04:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 11:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are ducking from my point, which was that atheists frequently quote one verse and fail to bother to read a verse just down the page (scroll).

Also, this isn't the very first time I've heard Matthew and the "this generation" argument before. For one it can be taken implied as "this generation that experiences these things (like the gospel going worldwide)..." and a simple concordance search will show 4-6 different meanings for genea or "generation", one of which is AGE. This AGE or EON or CHURCH AGE between now and Christ's return will not pass away.

I want to make a personal comment here. I'm extremely bored of hearing about the many Bible "contradictions" which I've heard over and again for years, again "fresh" on this site. I'm also bored hearing people on this forum say how ignorant Christians are. Many millions of them have a devout faith and can also weed out "contradictions" and look up words in Greek or Hebrew or a concordance to better understand. What would really interest me is hearing atheists prove what they believe without resorting to "can't prove a negative" and "the Bible sucks". You can do better. I'd be fascinated to see instead, an in-depth defense of what you believe besides very old (yawn) attacks on what I know and believe, and who I know and believe! Remember, religious epistemologists have noted that Christianity is about trust/faith in a person and not a concept or ideology.

I love the apologists approach as well, "No, what that scripture ACTUALLY meant was blah blah blah."..must be nice to cherry pic which scriptures are parables, and which are simply misunderstood....

The Bible claims that Jesus made the following comment:

Matthew 16:28

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Jesus also advised against going to court over someone who steals something and also told people not to store up stocks or reserves for the future. Clearly, he thought the end was very near.

Likewise, Paul advised followers not to marry and that the end time was near. In this scripture he obviously believes that some of the people he is talking to will still be alive at the second coming.

I Thessalonians 4: 16-18

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

The obvious fact is that the second coming was not forthcoming at that time, or even close to being near. The 2000-year delay is a strong piece of evidence that Christianity is a failed religion.

The following quote from Stephen L. Harris, Professor Emeritus of Humanities and Religious Studies at California State University- Sacramento, completes this point with a devastating argument. Remember that Jesus was a Jew who had no intention to deviate from the Hebrew scriptures:

“Jesus did not accomplish what Israel’s prophets said the Messiah was commissioned to do: He did not deliver the covenant people from their Gentile enemies, reassemble those scattered in the Diaspora, restore the Davidic kingdom, or establish universal peace (cf.Isa. 9:6–7; 11:7–12:16, etc.). Instead of freeing Jews from oppressors and thereby fulfilling God’s ancient promises—for land, nationhood, kingship, and blessing—Jesus died a “shameful” death, defeated by the very political powers the Messiah was prophesied to overcome. Indeed, the Hebrew prophets did not foresee that Israel’s savior would be executed as a common criminal by Gentiles, making Jesus’ crucifixion a “stumbling block” to scripturally literate Jews. (1 Cor.1:23)”

Jesus’ immediate followers, mostly his 12 disciples, probably did not immediately identify this failure, because after Jesus’ body was likely stolen and concealed, a rumor spread that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead. A sense of optimism overcame their grief about his execution and renewed some hope that he was a true messiah. If they had known then that there was to be no return in the near or long-term future, they likely would have abandoned any further activity. Despite this resurgence in their faith, they never agreed with Paul’s concept of Jesus as being divine. Anything written in the Bible to suggest that they did is probably a result of later editing by some of Paul’s followers. Such a belief would have been an exceptional departure from the Jewish faith.

That is all pretty straight forward...false messiah, not that there is such a thing as a messiah anyway, all a fabrication...and yet you fell for it, hook, line and sinker..aren't you the bright boy?

"I'd be fascinated to see instead, an in-depth defense of what you believe"

Easy, there exists not one shred of actual evidence that jesus was the son of a god, there exists no empirical evidence of a god, and thus, based on that lack of evidence; atheists don't believe in god.

Now you can't paint atheists with a wide brush as there are all types of different people having distinct different views, some even lean a bit towards the pantheism side, and if I was to assert that "something" is out there, or there exists "some type of creative energy" it would most likely be some version of that. But the Xtian abrahamic anthropocentric, caring personal god does not exist, I can say that, because we know of this "god" because of the bible...the same book that is riddled with the three Fs; Fiction, Forgery and Fantasy...so since the fairy tale can be traced back to its inception, and be disproven in a plethora of ways...it would seem the Xtian god is a myth, JUST like all of the gods before him, all man made concoctions...like Romulus for example.

Certainly you can do better than this...

How come when you tell me what the scriptures "mean" you aren't guilty of the very same thing, "No, what that scripture ACTUALLY meant was blah blah blah."

Going further, how come your first face value reading, not looking at the historical context, the immediate context (as in the imminent eschaton example where ALL THREE synoptics have the transfiguration follow IMMEDIATELY), not looking at the Greek, etc. are correct, and mine are not?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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