Jesus should've come by now?
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09-12-2014, 12:36 PM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(09-12-2014 11:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Hurricanes cleanse overgrowth that can catch fire, alter water tables and the courses of rivers, etc. Both Xians and atheists who complain about storms of weather are being a little anthropocentric for my taste. Would you agree?

I'd expect a god to be able to come up with a better way to clear underbrush, adjust water tables, and change river courses without needing to be so violent about it. It isn't just humans that can be negatively affected by hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc. They all make sense in a non-theistic world but not so much given a god.

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12-12-2014, 10:42 AM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(09-12-2014 12:09 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 11:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm displeased when both Christians and atheists comment on things like hurricanes, as if hurricanes only interfere with human life. Hurricanes cleanse overgrowth that can catch fire, alter water tables and the courses of rivers, etc. Both Xians and atheists who complain about storms of weather are being a little anthropocentric for my taste. Would you agree?

You're doing it again, no atheists think a hurricane has intent, they call BS when theists try to explain it in the context of their god's intent.

Not so. I've seen atheists in my searches on this forum saying to the effect of if there is a God, he causes unneeded suffering and specifically mentioning acts of weather and nature. It's not a level playing field if you constantly twist semantics to belabor the point that atheists don't believe in God. I know that. What I'd really rather understand is how atheists accuse Christians of apophenia regarding a god without ever considering they can be guilty of apophenia regarding the lack of a god in the same data!

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12-12-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(12-12-2014 10:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 12:09 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You're doing it again, no atheists think a hurricane has intent, they call BS when theists try to explain it in the context of their god's intent.

Not so. I've seen atheists in my searches on this forum saying to the effect of if there is a God, he causes unneeded suffering and specifically mentioning acts of weather and nature. It's not a level playing field if you constantly twist semantics to belabor the point that atheists don't believe in God. I know that. What I'd really rather understand is how atheists accuse Christians of apophenia regarding a god without ever considering they can be guilty of apophenia regarding the lack of a god in the same data!

You just did it again.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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12-12-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(09-12-2014 12:26 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 11:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If I can restate my point, please, more succinctly. The Bible is a great guidebook for life that not all people have. I don't think it's "a mysterious way" that it wasn't distributed per your wishes that God place inside its entire contents for all of us internally--I think that's a little awkward in construction, but also, regarding salvation, all of us have a conscience (if we are mentally fit--if not, there is mercy).

The bible is a book that is understood by few (if any), interpreted by many, has countless interpretations, is ambiguous, full of contradictions and stories that don't fit well even if not directly contradictory, has many authors, has been embellished and plagiarized, and... never mind that's enough. But you call it "a great guidebook". Really? Rolleyes

(09-12-2014 11:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Put another way, the Bible is great as a guide to this life. But it is not needed for God to accurately "sort" people for the afterlife. Therefore IMO all people have a conscience but not a set of the scriptures. Does that make better sense to you? Sorry for being unclear before.

Yes, the bible is unrelated to conscience. But, from the Christian perspective, it is intended as a way to understand god's expectations of us. I suppose it would be possible to get to heaven without that (still Christian perspective here), and of course god wouldn't need it, but what's the point of it then if god intended the book to help us, but it doesn't. I stand by my point that it would have been far better if your god simply willed the understanding into us instead of communicating through a confusing, nonsensical book.

(09-12-2014 11:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The butterfly effect is an aside, but it has helped me find peace about many things including the nature of suffering. Or if you like, the opposite of the butterfly effect with a large event. I'm displeased when both Christians and atheists comment on things like hurricanes, as if hurricanes only interfere with human life. Hurricanes cleanse overgrowth that can catch fire, alter water tables and the courses of rivers, etc. Both Xians and atheists who complain about storms of weather are being a little anthropocentric for my taste. Would you agree?

Hurricanes - why do you constantly seem to miss the forest for the trees? All of the "pluses" that you raised about hurricanes could easily be accomplished by your god another way without the death, suffering, and destruction. Why do you keep making excuses for you god's obvious failures? Consider

I hear you on the first point. I've also heard the theory of relativity described as a wonderful thing that few people can understand. Something little understood can be wonderful if esoteric.

But your claim that few people can understand the Bible isn't so--after all, every atheist on this forum claims to understand it--and then judges it--in hundreds of different doctrinal claims and areas!

Great question re: what's the point of the people if one doesn't understand or even have it. It's a guidebook for Christians, not atheists, to live their lives. Clearly, you all express that concept here, and often. My point remains--your conscience informs you of your need for God without a Bible, and has before men had scrolls and papyri, too.

I find it ironic that you mention a forest and trees while ignoring my point that a hurricane has everything to do with the cleansing of flora! I'm not trying to make you silly, just making an observation here. Your point about "human suffering" reinforces the point I just made, that atheists are anthropocentric always when it comes to things that cause HUMAN suffering. Why does your imaginary god have to avoid human suffering when cleansing fauna and flora with a storm?

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12-12-2014, 10:51 AM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(12-12-2014 10:47 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 10:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Not so. I've seen atheists in my searches on this forum saying to the effect of if there is a God, he causes unneeded suffering and specifically mentioning acts of weather and nature. It's not a level playing field if you constantly twist semantics to belabor the point that atheists don't believe in God. I know that. What I'd really rather understand is how atheists accuse Christians of apophenia regarding a god without ever considering they can be guilty of apophenia regarding the lack of a god in the same data!

You just did it again.

No. I was responding to you--because atheists seem to think about a hypothetical god as the causation of unneeded suffering far more often than theists. There's a difference of scale between a Christian who gets sick and says, "Oh well, praise the Lord!" and forgets they are sick two seconds later, and an atheist who spends a dozen posts reiterating that hurricanes and sickness require imaginary accountability on the part of theists. And why do you care how often we defend our principles against attacks, anyway? If you bring up suffering as unneeded, that is, remove it from its context against what you claim is your materialist mind that says hurricanes are natural, not supernatural, what do you expect? We are trying to relieve your mental tension.

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12-12-2014, 10:55 AM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(09-12-2014 12:36 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 11:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Hurricanes cleanse overgrowth that can catch fire, alter water tables and the courses of rivers, etc. Both Xians and atheists who complain about storms of weather are being a little anthropocentric for my taste. Would you agree?

I'd expect a god to be able to come up with a better way to clear underbrush, adjust water tables, and change river courses without needing to be so violent about it. It isn't just humans that can be negatively affected by hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc. They all make sense in a non-theistic world but not so much given a god.

Ah, but now you are limiting the purposes of storms and weather to a narrow and still anthropocentric, viewpoint. It's too violent for YOUR taste has nothing to do with 1,000 other purposes the same storm could accomplish overall. One consequence of Hurricane Andrew (if I may be anthropocentric myself for a moment) was the resolution of American insurers to better distribute their risk pool/clients over geographic areas, providing more reliable insurance coverage overall.

I'm not God but I can myself see 100 million homeowners with heightened coverage against 10 people who were told to evacuate or stay inside but didn't... again, the difference here is you have GOD responsible for 10 people who told PEOPLE - and GOD - they planned to NOT evacuate the area... etc. I don't know those ten people personally but can make an educated guess.

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12-12-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(12-12-2014 10:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 10:47 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You just did it again.

No. I was responding to you--because atheists seem to think about a hypothetical god as the causation of unneeded suffering far more often than theists. There's a difference of scale between a Christian who gets sick and says, "Oh well, praise the Lord!" and forgets they are sick two seconds later, and an atheist who spends a dozen posts reiterating that hurricanes and sickness require imaginary accountability on the part of theists. And why do you care how often we defend our principles against attacks, anyway? If you bring up suffering as unneeded, that is, remove it from its context against what you claim is your materialist mind that says hurricanes are natural, not supernatural, what do you expect? We are trying to relieve your mental tension.

Cute, there is no scientific evidence that natural phenomenon has intent other than physics. If you want to assert that, then you must show proof otherwise.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

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12-12-2014, 11:33 AM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(12-12-2014 10:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I hear you on the first point. I've also heard the theory of relativity described as a wonderful thing that few people can understand. Something little understood can be wonderful if esoteric.

No, apparently you missed (or ignored) my first point. By the way, my eternal destiny in bliss or torture doesn't depend on the theory of relativity.

(12-12-2014 10:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But your claim that few people can understand the Bible isn't so--after all, every atheist on this forum claims to understand it--and then judges it--in hundreds of different doctrinal claims and areas!

Strawman. Atheists understand a lot about it, there's a difference. We understand why it's fiction. We understand that it's full of contradictions, atrocities, impossibilities, lies, and things that don't add up. Parts of it can be understood. Other parts don't make any sense and no one claims that they do. The fact that there are countless translations is strong evidence that few, if any, understand it. Now one could argue that there is a "correct" translation and the ones doing that translation actually understand it. But since no translation is without its contradictions and nonsensical portions, I would disagree.

(12-12-2014 10:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Great question re: what's the point of the people if one doesn't understand or even have it. It's a guidebook for Christians, not atheists, to live their lives. Clearly, you all express that concept here, and often. My point remains--your conscience informs you of your need for God without a Bible, and has before men had scrolls and papyri, too.

Totally missed my point. How can it be a guidebook even for Christians if no one can understand or agree upon what "god" is telling us to do?

(12-12-2014 10:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I find it ironic that you mention a forest and trees while ignoring my point that a hurricane has everything to do with the cleansing of flora! I'm not trying to make you silly, just making an observation here. Your point about "human suffering" reinforces the point I just made, that atheists are anthropocentric always when it comes to things that cause HUMAN suffering. Why does your imaginary god have to avoid human suffering when cleansing fauna and flora with a storm?

No problem, it's only you that you are making look silly by continuing to ignore what I said. Fine, hurricanes cleanse the flora. And so what? Why must your god continue to cause mass deaths and suffering in order to cleanse the flora when he could simply will it and no harm would be done to anything or anyone? Are you going to answer this time or are you going to avoid the question yet again? Consider

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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12-12-2014, 11:39 AM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2014 12:00 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(12-12-2014 10:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Not so. I've seen atheists in my searches on this forum saying to the effect of if there is a God, he causes unneeded suffering and specifically mentioning acts of weather and nature.

The keyword there being IF. Many atheists are perfectly capable of assuming the existence of a god for the sake or argument and then following that through to examine the consequences. IF there is a god then the evidence shows that he causes unneeded suffering either by causing or not preventing acts of weather.

Quote:No. I was responding to you--because atheists seem to think about a hypothetical god as the causation of unneeded suffering far more often than theists.

We are just responding to the theistic claims that god exists and showing that IF theists are right then their god is a dick. The evidence all seems to show that they aren't right and we are just dealing with random chance and the way the universe works. (And if you think theists don't talk constantly about god's purpose in using hurricanes and other natural events then you aren't paying attention.)

Quote:Ah, but now you are limiting the purposes of storms and weather to a narrow and still anthropocentric, viewpoint. It's too violent for YOUR taste has nothing to do with 1,000 other purposes the same storm could accomplish overall.

That doesn't address my point: if your god can only accomplish his goals through means that include large scale acts of destruction then that seems pretty pathetic.

Quote:I'm not God but I can myself see 100 million homeowners with heightened coverage

So a benefit is that 100 million homeowners were scared by an act of god into buying insurance in order to protect themselves from future acts of god? Have you ever heard of something called a "protection racket"?

Quote: against 10 people who were told to evacuate or stay inside but didn't... again, the difference here is you have GOD responsible for 10 people who told PEOPLE - and GOD - they planned to NOT evacuate the area... etc. I don't know those ten people personally but can make an educated guess.

I've read that several times and have absolutely no idea what you mean.

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12-12-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: Jesus should've come by now?
(12-12-2014 11:39 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I've read that several times and have absolutely no idea what you mean.

I believe he is saying that the 10 people would probably be atheists (although I don't follow the logic there) and those 10 people would cause the other 90 to have higher insurance premiums due to their stupidity - but god gets the blame. tl/dr strawman.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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