Jesus was NOT the Messiah
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
23-10-2014, 06:56 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2014 07:32 AM by Learner.)
Jesus was NOT the Messiah
Hello, all! This is my first post after joining this forum. I want to share a helpful resource in my deconversion from Christianity. One of the most convincing reasons for me leaving Christianity was the excellent work (I'd highly recommend everyone listen to) in a series of lectures by Rabbi Skobac addressing Christian's claims to find Jesus in prophecies of the Old Testament. (Note: I am not a Jew.) He completely obliterates every argument the Christian brings up, addressing all the common "proof-texts." He ultimately shows that all the supposed prophecies of Jesus are either: (1) twisted to fit him, (2) out-of-context and have nothing to do with the topic of the Messiah, (3) are Messianic passages, but couldn't ever apply to Jesus of Nazareth. This is a long series, but it is well worth your time. Rabbi Skobac provides many useful tools for approaching these texts and explaining them to a Christian in their context, as well as showing how Jewish beliefs differ from Christian beliefs (very interesting, like how they view "Satan," etc). Before listening to this series, I was still trying to be open to allowing the Bible to be wrong on science, but somehow still accepting theological claims about Jesus. After listening to this series, I saw the Gospels in a much different light in the way the anonymous writers were attempting to use aspects of Jesus' life (whether actual event or legend) as proving him to be the Messiah.

For instance, as a Christian, I interpreted some of these prophetic passages as "allegorical" interpretations as do several Christian scholars. For example, Hosea quoted in Matthew 2 was interpreted as referring to Christ as the "true Israel." Or take Isaiah 7 about the virgin conceiving, it was interpreted by some to not be a direct fulfillment, but an allegorical fulfillment by Jesus...hmm, either there are two virginal conceptions in the Bible per what fundamentalists say (though the word doesn't mean "virgin" but a young woman) OR king Ahaz was comforted when Assyria joined forces with Israel against him because, oh, God will be born in the flesh 600 years later...how comforting when he's about to get obliterated by a massive army!! (See the passage for what I mean) Rabbi Skobac has some good insights into better understanding how to address Christians who say: "But...but...Isaiah 53!!" I trust this will help you see through all the horsesh*t claims of XX number of propecies in the Old Testament pointing to Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah. I hope others find this series as helpful, enlightening, and freeing as I did! Enjoy!

[Links in a first post are kinda frowned upon... rule of thumb: let us get to know you a little first Smile ]

Since I'm not allowed to post a link yet (which was central to this post), you can find the lecture series on YouTube by searching for Jews for Judaism and Rabbi Skobac. It's called Counter-Missionary training.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Learner's post
23-10-2014, 07:26 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(23-10-2014 06:56 AM)Learner Wrote:  Hello, all! This is my first post after joining this forum. I want to share a helpful resource in my deconversion from Christianity. One of the most convincing reasons for me leaving Christianity was the excellent work (I'd highly recommend everyone listen to) in a series of lectures by Rabbi Skobac addressing Christian's claims to find Jesus in prophecies of the Old Testament. (Note: I am not a Jew.) He completely obliterates every argument the Christian brings up, addressing all the common "proof-texts." He ultimately shows that all the supposed prophecies of Jesus are either: (1) twisted to fit him, (2) out-of-context and have nothing to do with the topic of the Messiah, (3) are Messianic passages, but couldn't ever apply to Jesus of Nazareth. This is a long series, but it is well worth your time. Rabbi Skobac provides many useful tools for approaching these texts and explaining them to a Christian in their context, as well as showing how Jewish beliefs differ from Christian beliefs (very interesting, like how they view "Satan," etc). Before listening to this series, I was still trying to be open to allowing the Bible to be wrong on science, but somehow still accepting theological claims about Jesus. After listening to this series, I saw the Gospels in a much different light in the way the anonymous writers were attempting to use aspects of Jesus' life (whether actual event or legend) as proving him to be the Messiah.

For instance, as a Christian, I interpreted some of these prophetic passages as "allegorical" interpretations as do several Christian scholars. For example, Hosea quoted in Matthew 2 was interpreted as referring to Christ as the "true Israel." Or take Isaiah 7 about the virgin conceiving, it was interpreted by some to not be a direct fulfillment, but an allegorical fulfillment by Jesus...hmm, either there are two virginal conceptions in the Bible per what fundamentalists say (though the word doesn't mean "virgin" but a young woman) OR king Ahaz was comforted when Assyria joined forces with Israel against him because, oh, God will be born in the flesh 600 years later...how comforting when he's about to get obliterated by a massive army!! (See the passage for what I mean) Rabbi Skobac has some good insights into better understanding how to address Christians who say: "But...but...Isaiah 53!!" I trust this will help you see through all the horsesh*t claims of XX number of propecies in the Old Testament pointing to Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah. I hope others find this series as helpful, enlightening, and freeing as I did! Enjoy!

[Links in a first post are kinda frowned upon... rule of thumb: let us get to know you a little first Smile ]

Welcome to the forum, Learner. I hope that you find your time here educational and interesting.

I can't remember it exactly, but I could swear I recall a verse in the Bibal which gives the Messia's name and it is most certainly not 'Jesus'.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-10-2014, 08:53 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2014 03:01 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
The FIRST problem with Fundamentalism's mistaken interpretation of "prophecy" is that it was never intended as the prediction of the future.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278
In fact "omen reading" and soothsaying were forbidden, (until they weren't, ... and it became culturally acceptable much much later).
Deuteronomy 18:10 "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire", (yes the Hebrews practiced child sacrifice for a while, and we even know where they did it, bet they never taught you that) "who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft"

Bible 101 students in mainline universities learn that. People who go to fundie schools NEVER learn what "prophecy" really was in that culture. It was not about prediction of anything. So the ENTIRE enterprise of "proof by true prediction" is built on a totally false understanding of those texts, and the "office" of a prophet. A prophet was an adviser, not a crystal ball reader, (even though it's come to mean that these days).

One of the funny ones is the woo-counting up to the date that the (now overwhelmingly SECULAR and Arab) "State of Israel" was established by the UN in the 1940's. Did they "prophesy" that a democracy would be established ? No. It was the KINGDOM, (and for most of it's history it was TWO kingdoms anyway, in ancient times).

The role of the "anointed one" (the KING of Israel was the "anointed" one .. ie the "messiah") was supposed to reestablish the EARTHLY Kingdom of Israel, and even the followers of Jebus thought that : Acts 1:6 "Then they gathered around him and asked him, 'Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?' "

Thanks for the reference to the Rabbi. I'll see what he has to say. There is also a fairly new book by Bart Ehrman "How Jesus Became a god" which I like first, because in the title, he references the correct translation of the Greek word "exaltation" (which makes perfect sense in the context of Jewish Apocalypicism (NOT "resurrection")).
http://www.amazon.com/How-Jesus-Became-G...0061778184
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Bucky Ball's post
23-10-2014, 10:11 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
Correct.




Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 7 users Like Minimalist's post
23-10-2014, 10:37 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(23-10-2014 10:11 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Correct.




Beat me to it...


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes CiderThinker's post
23-10-2014, 10:52 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
Of course a Rabbi is going to do that because they do not believe their savior has come yet.

However, try arguing with a Rabbi over what came prior to the Hebrews. Suddenly they will deny that they are, in reality, merely a spin off of prior polytheism. If you point out to them the common themes and character names in Ugartic polytheism, such as "Let us make them in our image" and names like "El, Elohim, Yhvh, and Baal" suddenly they will claim they are not the same characters.

Now while it is not clear at what point the splinter polytheists became Yahwehists turning him into a monotheistic god, he was the same god in prior polytheism. He simply went from a lesser god in a divine family to being the one true god in spin off of Hebrews. Any Rabbi claiming otherwise is in denial, just like Christians and Muslims and Hindus. There is no such thing as a god, and humans get their ideas for new religions from prior and surrounding cultures.

A holy person, of any religion, or theologian, of any religion, are not historians or scientific anthropologists, they are apologists. Historians and anthropologists do not argue that a god exists, they simply record and report their findings as to the beliefs and social norms of the time.

An apologist is a sales pitchman trying to get you to join the club. They are not historians or scientists. Although they can be very slick and elaborate and leading. But they really are not relevant considering our modern knowledge of real science and real study of history.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Brian37's post
23-10-2014, 10:57 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah



















[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
23-10-2014, 11:00 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(23-10-2014 10:11 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Correct.




Laugh out load Damn, I got a good, needed laugh out of that! That's hilarious. What movie's that from??
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-10-2014, 11:09 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(23-10-2014 10:52 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Of course a Rabbi is going to do that because they do not believe their savior has come yet.

Actually, it sounds like Orthodox Jews don't think of the Messiah as a savior-figure at all, per Rabbi Skobac. Instead, they believe the Tanakh places far more emphasis on the utopian world WHEN the Messiah reigns, rather than on the person of the Messiah. They don't believe the Messiah will be divine, but will simply be a wise and righteous king from the line of David who will rule at the beginning of the utopian world. And, based on my knowledge of the "Old Testament," I think they're spot-on instead of the Christian interpretation of the Messiah. (Not saying I'm a Jew or Christian, but just my opinion.)

(23-10-2014 10:52 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  However, try arguing with a Rabbi over what came prior to the Hebrews. Suddenly they will deny that they are, in reality, merely a spin off of prior polytheism. If you point out to them the common themes and character names in Ugartic polytheism, such as "Let us make them in our image" and names like "El, Elohim, Yhvh, and Baal" suddenly they will claim they are not the same characters.

You're exactly right. I was astounded to learn about the polytheism behind the names of God, before Judaism. To realize even the earlier Bible writings/traditions allowed other gods, but said to have none of them before God. Only around the time of the prophets like Isaiah did the Israelite religion believe all "gods" are made up and should not have any worship. (I'm going from memory of past reading here...)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-10-2014, 11:15 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(23-10-2014 11:00 AM)Learner Wrote:  
(23-10-2014 10:11 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Correct.




Laugh out load Damn, I got a good, needed laugh out of that! That's hilarious. What movie's that from??


Life of Brian.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: