Jesus was NOT the Messiah
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28-10-2014, 10:47 PM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2014 11:05 PM by evenheathen.)
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(28-10-2014 07:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And this is kind of the problem. Paul's writings are in fact the ramblings of a theologian. Someone who has no interest in Christian theology, and who can barely decipher theological ramblings, is not going to be very good at deciphering Paul's theological ramblings. That's sort of why we can be somewhat dismissive of you in regards to what Paul's theology entails, because it's clearly not a subject you're comfortable with.

Here's where I'm going to jump in with my $0.02, because it's broadly condescending to those of us who have spent most of our lives entrenched in the faith.

There is much more to be said for whether or not any of christianity is even remotely plausible than whether or not what Paul wrote about is relevant in any way to the real world. Those of us who once believed, but decided to submit and devote ourselves to the obvious logic of, not what we've been told....but what makes sense. We now have no need to mull over and pontificate what is no longer in any way reflective of reality.

That's not to say that we're not interested in these things, because we are. We are here reading theses threads and comparing and contrasting what is said by you all to what we've spent most of our lives contemplating.

(28-10-2014 07:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  and since you lack the sort of imagination to even consider what their theological concerns would be, it's understandable as to why you just wouldn't really get it.

No, we get it. It's just that when upon an examination the whole thing falls flat on it's face, the need to really examine the theological ramblings of Paul is no longer necessary. It's now an interesting musing, made personal because of what it might have meant that you would have believe had we not seen through it.

It's simply a comfort for you to say that we can't understand these theological ramblings because we're not going to read into them whatever it is that we need to in order to keep our faith alive, like you do. That's sad, bro.

Just sayin'....

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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28-10-2014, 10:48 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
Quote:and since you lack the sort of imagination to even consider what their theological concerns would be


Theological concerns are of no concern. I prefer reality.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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28-10-2014, 10:50 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(28-10-2014 09:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(28-10-2014 08:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  "According to you, the silence on Nazareth prior to at least the late first century, indicates that it likely didn't exist prior to this. Your mind places a lot of weight on silence."

In fact, according to you, the silence on Nazareth prior to at least the late first century, indicates that it likely did exist prior to this. Your mind places a lot of weight on silence.

Actually it's not. Christians sources already date Nazareth prior to this. The inscription only helps to collaborate this, through non-christian sources.
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28-10-2014, 10:54 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(28-10-2014 10:48 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Theological concerns are of no concern. I prefer reality.

Except of course when we're talking about a particular person or groups theology.

Religious beliefs may be of no concern to you, except of course when you're speaking of a particular groups religious beliefs.
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28-10-2014, 11:03 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
Want to discuss the Mormons and planet Kolob?

Or the Norse and Valhalla?

The Olympic gods?

All theological nonsense. Archaeology is real. I prefer that.

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28-10-2014, 11:14 PM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2014 11:25 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(28-10-2014 10:47 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(28-10-2014 07:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And this is kind of the problem. Paul's writings are in fact the ramblings of a theologian. Someone who has no interest in Christian theology, and who can barely decipher theological ramblings, is not going to be very good at deciphering Paul's theological ramblings. That's sort of why we can be somewhat dismissive of you in regards to what Paul's theology entails, because it's clearly not a subject you're comfortable with.

Here's where I'm going to jump in with my $0.02, because it's broadly condescending to those of us who have spent most of our lives entrenched in the faith. [...]

That's not to say that we're not interested in these things, because we are. We are here reading theses threads and comparing and contrasting what is said by you all to what we've spent most of our lives contemplating.

I wasn't making a statement about every single atheist, or even all the ones on this forum. It was primarily directed to Mark. When I referred to "someone who has no interest in Christian theology", this didn't mean all atheists have no interest in Christian theology. In fact I could probably name a few who would have made excellent theologians. I was referring to those who "have no interest". They could be jews, or scientologist for all I care.

Quote: the need to really examine the theological ramblings of Paul is no longer necessary.

It is necessary, if we want to lay claim to what Paul was rambling about, regardless if what he was rambling about is completely false. If I were to write of what Dawkins believed, I would have to examine his beliefs in order to do so, regardless if I agreed with him or not.

Quote:It's simply a comfort for you to say that we can't understand these theological ramblings

There's no we here, it's only Mark. If there is a "we", than it's folks who believe that Paul believed in a spirit being Jesus, who lived in some platonic other-realm, then yes, they have no clue as to what they're talking about. Just like a creationist who claims that Darwin believed the eye was designed, clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.

If you have taken anything I've said to be an indictment of atheists as a whole, I apologize, but this was not my intention.
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28-10-2014, 11:28 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(28-10-2014 07:22 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "Paul was writing letters to various Christian communities regarding issues within those churches. And the primarily theological trouble for these infant communities, in fact it’s still an ongoing issues even in churches today, was in developing a Christology. Or in other words Paul, like many theologians past, and present, is exploring what it means for Jesus to be Christ. His audience is a community of believers, not those outside of it, and he’d likely have been surprised to find that we’re reading his letters today. His audience is a community, that already had some common beliefs."

Paul wasn't "exploring" anything. He knew EXACTLY what he was telling them and what "his gospel" was. Romans 2:16 "This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

Yep.
He knew the shit he was pedalling...

In the decades Paul was preaching, the Nazarenes were expanding into a significant force under James’ leadership in Jerusalem. They also enjoyed a strong membership among Jews throughout the empire. They definitely didn’t preach the divinity of Christ, nor intend to start a new religion. Paul, when he wasn’t pretending to be one of them, considered them competitors. He got very upset when he encountered rival missionaries, who were probably Nazarene, and complained bitterly about them hijacking “his” converts. He cursed them, using the undeniable truth of his own gospel as justification:
“I am astonished at the promptness with which you have turned away from the one who called you and have decided to follow a different version of the Good News. Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some trouble makers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one that we have already preached to you, whether it be ourselves or an angel from heaven, he is condemned” (Gal. 1:6–9, NJB.)

He sounds like an upset child whose best friend has gone off to play with someone else. It’s ironic that he was accusing his adversaries of the very thing he was guilty of - preaching a fabrication! He clearly undermined Yeshua’s family and disciples behind their backs. He was surprised and angry to find himself competing with them for people’s allegiance. They were treading on what he considered his turf. How dare they preach old-fashioned Jewish theology and disrupt his mission to set up communities of believers! Those annoying war-mongering Jews promoted subversive fantasies about a messiah, but today’s God had revealed to him the real Christ, the up-to-date modern Christ! He, not them, was plugging the “good news.” He claimed he knew what the flexible, expansionist, less violent, less Judaic God expected in these modern, pro-Roman times. He thought of himself as an educated, savvy sophisticate who knew a stack more about selling religion than the old fashioned anti-Roman bumpkins from Jerusalem!
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28-10-2014, 11:33 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(28-10-2014 11:14 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-10-2014 10:47 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Here's where I'm going to jump in with my $0.02, because it's broadly condescending to those of us who have spent most of our lives entrenched in the faith. [...]

That's not to say that we're not interested in these things, because we are. We are here reading theses threads and comparing and contrasting what is said by you all to what we've spent most of our lives contemplating.

I wasn't making a statement about every single atheist, or even all the ones on this forum. It was primarily directed to Mark. When I referred to "someone who has no interest in Christian theology", this didn't mean all atheists have no interest in Christian theology. In fact I could probably name a few who would have made excellent theologians. I was referring to those who "have no interest". They could be jews, or scientologist for all I care.

(28-10-2014 07:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  the need to really examine the theological ramblings of Paul is no longer necessary.

It is necessary, if we want to lay claim to what Paul was rambling about, regardless if what he was rambling about is completely false. If I were to write of what Dawkins believed, I would have to examine his beliefs in order to do so, regardless if I agreed with him or not.

Quote:It's simply a comfort for you to say that we can't understand these theological ramblings

There's no we here, it's only Mark. If there is a "we", than it's folks who believe that Paul believed in a spirit being Jesus, who lived in some platonic other-realm, then yes, they have no clue as to what they're talking about. Just like a creationist who claims that Darwin believed the eye was designed, clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.

If you have taken anything I've said to be an indictment of atheists as a whole, I apologize, but this was not my intention.

:@Well.................................okay then Dodgy .......carry on. Drinking Beverage

Really though, you have to keep in mind that there's a good reason that anybody spends as much time as they do delving into these things. It's because these kinds of discussions are pertinent to our knowledge of ourselves, and the truth is important.

Don't be so keen on swiftly dismissing someone who has devoted much of their life to trying to understanding where these beliefs come from, no matter their background. We're all searching for the truth here, and we can always learn from eachother, we just have to be willing to listen.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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28-10-2014, 11:48 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(28-10-2014 11:28 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He sounds like an upset child whose best friend has gone off to play with someone else. It’s ironic that he was accusing his adversaries of the very thing he was guilty of - preaching a fabrication! He clearly undermined Yeshua’s family and disciples behind their backs. He was surprised and angry to find himself competing with them for people’s allegiance. They were treading on what he considered his turf. How dare they preach old-fashioned Jewish theology and disrupt his mission to set up communities of believers! Those annoying war-mongering Jews promoted subversive fantasies about a messiah, but today’s God had revealed to him the real Christ, the up-to-date modern Christ! He, not them, was plugging the “good news.” He claimed he knew what the flexible, expansionist, less violent, less Judaic God expected in these modern, pro-Roman times. He thought of himself as an educated, savvy sophisticate who knew a stack more about selling religion than the old fashioned anti-Roman bumpkins from Jerusalem!

What's odd here, is that you seem to be completely oblivious to that fact that Paul elaborates in Galatians on exactly what it is he's in an uproar about! Not these individuals beliefs regarding the divinity of Jesus. In fact he doesn't complain about any other aspect about this group than one thing, and that is a compulsory demand that their adherents observe the Jewish ritual laws, particularly circumcision, and how they were denying fellowship to the Gentiles as a result of this.
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29-10-2014, 12:05 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(28-10-2014 11:03 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Want to discuss the Mormons and planet Kolob?

Or the Norse and Valhalla?

The Olympic gods?

All theological nonsense. Archaeology is real. I prefer that.

Yes...archaeology.
Tried to read thread.....erm....maybe im just too tired.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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