Jesus was NOT the Messiah
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29-10-2014, 06:46 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 06:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 05:54 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  The term "Ebionite" is Christian, and dates from the second half of the second century. Christian authors used it (sometimes) to refer to Jewish people who associated themselves with a Jesus. Bart is commenting on what Christian authors said. Those authors were not aware of what any of the people, 150 + years earlier, who associated with Jesus, believed. Nor were they above making things up to promote nonsense about a divine Jeebus.

But yet some how you know though right? If all we have on what these individuals believed is what other people wrote of them 150+ years later, how do you derive their supposed original beliefs, which you claim was in stark contrast to what these writers had to say about them, as well as what Ehrman had to say about them?

You seem to imply that you have additional primary sources that substantiate your views regarding the beliefs of the Nazarene/Ebionite sect. Do you in fact have this? If so can you please provide these primary sources, so we can evaluate them, to see if your claims about them hold up?

I apologize if I came off a bit too peevish in my previous post, I should respect the fact that you unlike the others have stuck-it-out this long, but the fact that you're not being very forthcoming does rub me the wrong way.

You want a primary source? Consider the following, (half way through the spiel) part of the dead sea scrolls, which were written, or at least compiled by, an Essene community. Note that the Nazarenes were, almost certainly, one version of the Essenes.

Yeshua’s family was said to be poor, so he would probably have had to toil to take care of them—perhaps as a farmer, or possibly as a laborer constructing the cities of Sepphoris or Tiberias. In about 19 CE, when Yeshua was a young man, the city of Tiberias on the banks of the Sea of Galilee was under construction, thirty kilometers from today’s Nazareth. He must have walked through its streets. Today it’s Northern Israel’s most popular holiday resort. That would have kept him busy six days a week. The seventh day was the Sabbath, on which no Jew would do any work.

The young man breathed Galilean air that was thick with anti-Roman feeling. He would have heard stories about Jewish men killed by Roman soldiers, and how their families were abducted, and maybe even seen the fighting first hand. Every day he would have had to face the ugly reality of being poor, and would have blamed the pagans with their brutal army for the way things were. This wasn’t the glorious kingdom God had promised Israel in scripture.

Many larger cities in Galilee housed Gentiles, and Yeshua would have resented their presence, yet would have had little to do with them.

The Jewish expectation for a political leader, (a Messiah or “savior”) had been introduced in parts of Isaiah, which was probably written during or just after the Babylonian captivity. It refers to the restoration of the nation of Israel. (http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm).

In Yeshua’s day there was a widespread hope among Jews that a Messiah would lead the people in a revolt to establish the “kingdom of God,” in which Jews would be in charge and the world’s wealth would be distributed evenly, not condensed in Roman hands and aristocratic families. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mes...laimants). Josephus, writing in the late first century, explains why Jews were so inspired by these patriotic dreams:
“That which chiefly excited them to war was an ambiguous prophecy, which was also found in the sacred books, that at that time someone, within their country should arise, that should obtain the empire of the whole world. For this they had spoken of one of their nation; and many wise men were deceived with the interpretation” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews.)

Two secular Roman historians say something similar:
“There had spread all over the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated for men coming from Judea to rule the world.” (Seutonius, Life of Vespasian, 4.5.)
“The majority [of the Jews] were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judea would go forth men destined to rule the world.” (Tacitus, Histories 5.13.)

Throughout the first century revolutionary groups of zealots led by hopeful messianic leaders commonly formed, promised apocalyptic deliverance, but achieved nothing lasting. The Qumran community, who compiled the Dead Sea Scrolls, was one such group. They had a pathological hatred for the Romans (whom they called the “Kittim.”) They also despised the Sadducees, who they regarded as Rome’s lackeys. After years of Roman domination, they dreamed of a bloody revenge. A part of the Scrolls describes a fantasy of a battle in which the Kittim were crushed:
“This shall be a time of salvation for people of God, and age of dominion for all the members of His company, and of everlasting destruction for the company of Satan… The dominion of the Kittim shall come to an end and iniquity shall be vanquished, leaving no remnant for the sons of darkness, there shall be no escape. The sons of righteousness shall shine over all the ends of earth; they shall go on shining until all the seasons of darkness are consumed and, at the season appointed by God, His exalted greatness shall shine eternally to the peace, blessing, glory, and long life of all the sons of light” (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/scroll...h/07.htm).

The leader of the army who led them in this fantasized battle is unequivocally called the “messiah.” They were obviously fanatical and, as things turned out, rather deluded, as neither God nor a successful messiah ever made an appearance.

The poorer classes must have pondered over this political pipe dream. It’s not hard to imagine that any charismatic Jew brave enough to claim he was the messiah could soon collect a gang of Galilean paupers to back him up, particularly if he was said to be David’s descendant. A young Yeshua must have wondered who this messiah was going to be.

As most Essenes were celibate, Yeshua may not have had a family of his own. Nor would he have been bothered with accumulating wealth. He was a man with an altogether different agenda. I think he made a career out of preaching about his political aspirations for Israel.

Most young men are irked by any imposition on their freedom. If they are poor and have little hope for a positive future, their frustration escalates. In most cultures, identity and self-respect are aligned with religious and ethnic affiliation. Bad feelings against foreigners boil over if these features of identity are compromised. Picture young Arabs in the Gaza strip for the modern equivalent.

Yeshua was young, poor, oppressed, and almost certainly a religious idealist.
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29-10-2014, 07:12 AM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2014 08:26 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 03:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 03:36 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Listen grasshopper, I've spent an estimated 15,000 hours researching this shit and have written a book about it.

You obviously had never heard of the Nazarenes (because you thought the term referred to the fact that Jesus was allegedly from Nazareth). You've now spent 10 minutes on Google, and are now telling me what "we" know about the Nazarenes. Like most ignorant people, you just don't know how much you don't know.

So in other words you got nothing, other than you wasted 15,000 hours of your life in order to peddle bullshit?

Really ?

As opposed to the LIFETIME that you wasted on your "illusions" which you couldn't support if you tried ?
Not to worry though. Ya see, he's just doing some *theological rambling*, and since you're not "special" you just don't understand his concerns. Thumbsup


Waiting ...... still waiting.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-10-2014, 11:33 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
This one reminds me of:

Quote:If we had opened our eyes to the light under the shadows of St. Peter's at Rome, we should have been devout Catholics; born in the Jewish quarter of Aleppo, we should have contemned Christ as an imposter; in Constantinople, we should have cried "Allah il Allah, God is great and Mahomet is his prophet!" Birth, place, and education give us our faith. Few believe in any religion because they have examined the evidences of its authenticity, and made up a formal judgment, upon weighing the testimony. Not one man in ten thousand knows anything about the proofs of his faith. We believe what we are taught; and those are most fanatical who know least of the evidences on which their creed is based.


--Brig. Gen Albert Pike, C.S.A.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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29-10-2014, 03:20 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 11:33 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  This one reminds me of:

Quote:If we had opened our eyes to the light under the shadows of St. Peter's at Rome, we should have been devout Catholics; born in the Jewish quarter of Aleppo, we should have contemned Christ as an imposter; in Constantinople, we should have cried "Allah il Allah, God is great and Mahomet is his prophet!" Birth, place, and education give us our faith. Few believe in any religion because they have examined the evidences of its authenticity, and made up a formal judgment, upon weighing the testimony. Not one man in ten thousand knows anything about the proofs of his faith. We believe what we are taught; and those are most fanatical who know least of the evidences on which their creed is based.


--Brig. Gen Albert Pike, C.S.A.

"From bitter searching of the heart,
Quickened with passion and with pain
We rise to play a greater part.
This is the faith from which we start:
Men shall know commonwealth again
From bitter searching of the heart.
We loved the easy and the smart,
But now, with keener hand and brain,
We rise to play a greater part.
The lesser loyalties depart,
And neither race nor creed remain
From bitter searching of the heart.
Not steering by the venal chart
That tricked the mass for private gain,
We rise to play a greater part.
Reshaping narrow law and art
From bitter searching of the heart
Whose symbols are the millions slain,
We rise to play a greater part"
(Performed by Leonard Cohen, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x33Wip2iytE).

Maybe, just maybe, he's retired to do some research.
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29-10-2014, 06:38 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2014 07:16 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(27-10-2014 12:38 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  I always found it significant that Origen, living perhaps 30 miles away from "Nazareth" in Caesarea didn't seem to know anything about it and most damningly this 'Paul' character that xtians keep trotting out never heard of it at all. Never mentions it.
Not once.

Damned queer

This is kind of the ridicolous sort of shit you hear from creationist arguing against evolution. When all we have are written sources, folks such as yourself cry about how they can't be trusted. When there is archaeological evidence, they cry about there not being non-christian written mentions of some podunk town in Galilee.

Do you even know where much of this Nazareth denial originates from? From a book by a musician, Rene Salm, lol. Basically the entire arguments is strung from the views of the equivalent of a Ken Ham.

Archeologist have also dug up tombs, even a house, found pottery, coins all this from this particular region dating it to the time of Jesus.

To quote to Ehrman:

Quote:"“There is an even bigger problem, however. Many compelling pieces of archaeological evidence indicate that in fact Nazareth did exist in Jesus’s day and that, like other villages and towns in that part of Galilee, it was built on the hillside, near where the later rock-cut kokh tombs were built. For one thing, archaeologists have excavated a farm connected with the village, and it dates to the time of Jesus. [...] “ Yardena Alexandre indicated that 165 coins were found in this excavation, she specified in the report that some of them were late, from the fourteenth or fifteenth century....But as it turns out, among the coins were some that date to the Hellenistic, Hasmonean, and early Roman period, that is, the days of Jesus..... [.....]

“Salm also claims that the pottery found on the site that is dated to the time of Jesus is not really from this period, even though he is not an expert on pottery. Two archaeologists who reply to Salm’s protestations say the following: “Salm’s personal evaluation of the pottery…reveals his lack of expertise in the area as well as his lack of serious research in the sources.”16 They go on to state, “By ignoring or dismissing solid ceramic, numismatic [coins], and literary evidence for Nazareth’s existence during the Late Hellenistic and Early Roman period, it would appear that the analysis which René Salm includes in his review, and his recent book must, in itself, be relegated to the realm of ‘myth.’” [...]

“As it turns out, another discovery was made in ancient Nazareth a year after Salm’s book appeared. It is a house that dates to the days of Jesus. The discovery was reported by the Associated Press on December 21, 2009. I have personally written the principal archaeologist, Yardena Alexandre, the excavations director at the Israel Antiquity Authority, and she has confirmed the report. The house is located on the hill slopes. Pottery shards connected to the house range from roughly 100 BCE to 100 CE (that is, the days of Jesus). There is nothing in the house to suggest that the people inhabiting it over this time had any wealth: there are no glass items or imported products. The vessels are made of clay and chalk.

The AP story concludes that “the dwelling and older discoveries of nearby tombs in burial caves suggest that Nazareth was an out-of the-way hamlet of around 50 houses on a patch of about four acres…populated by Jews of modest means.”

Excerpt From: Bart D. Ehrman. “Did Jesus Exist?.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/Vc9tA.l

At this point, Mythicist and Nazarene-denialists have confirmed they're really in the same league as every other nutty denialist, from moon-landing conspiracy nuts, to creationists, and holocaust-denialists.
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29-10-2014, 07:12 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 06:46 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You want a primary source? Consider the following, (half way through the spiel) part of the dead sea scrolls, which were written, or at least compiled by, an Essene community. Note that the Nazarenes were, almost certainly, one version of the Essenes.

The Essenes were an Apocalyptic Jewish sect, and not a christian or quasi-christian one. There's no mention of Jesus, any of his followers, like James, or John the Baptist, Paul in any of their writings. They believed the end was near, and the messiah was coming. They were by all accounts Jewish, unlike Nazarene or Ebionetes who believed Jesus was the messiah.

So in reality you have no primary sources to confirm your suspicions as to what the Nazarenes believed, in contrast to the portrait painted by the early church fathers.

But I think I can figure out exactly how you derive all this. Your argument boils down to that fact, that the Nazerenes/Ebionetes, and the group Paul was opposing (I'm just sort of granting that they were all one in the same, even though this is pretty doubtful), were all very Jewish, particularly since they were unwilling to relinquish adherence to the Ritual Law, but unlike very jewish-jewish folks, they accepted that Jesus was the Messiah.

So merely on the basis that they were pretty jewish, and not on any primary sources indicating what they did and did not believe, you invent all sorts of shit claiming that they believed this and that, for no other reason other than they clung to these rituals laws.

Am I pretty correct in this assessment?
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29-10-2014, 07:24 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 03:20 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Maybe, just maybe, he's retired to do some research.

I work overnight, and I typically read and post here during my downtime. I'm usually asleep during the day, or running errands, or spending time with family or friends, until the start of my shift. So if you don't see any responses for long stretches of the day, this is likely why.
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29-10-2014, 07:55 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2014 09:04 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
I think the reason that mythicism gets a lot of traction, and a fervent following, is that the claims of mythicism are very attractive to opponents of Christianity, who see it as a sort of means to undermine it.

So when someone comes along who sounds all authoritative, claiming to have put in 15,000 hours of research, or that they're a student at Harvard Divinity, and have established a sort of trust solely because they're on the same side, the immediate response is to accept all the sweet sounding things they have to say whole cloth.

Most folks, in my experience, even those who claim to be skeptical, lack the stamina to go out and inquire about the validity of claims that they find so attractive, so they rarely ever do any leg work themselves. They sort of just go along with these authoritative sounding figures, believing that they've already done all the leg work, so there's no need to second guess them.
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29-10-2014, 08:14 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2014 09:09 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 07:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think the reason that mythicism gets a lot of traction, and a fervent following, is that the claims of mythicism are very attractive to opponents of Christianity, who see it as a sort of means to undermine it.

Said the poster who can't spell, or write in correct English.
Wrong. (And again I never said I was a mythicist). I said we will never know, EITHER WAY.
Christianity needs no "undermining". Christianity is preposterous on its face, and makes no sense AT ALL, to anyone who actually understands the culture it came from, (which you have, over and over, demonstrated you have not a clue about).
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ins?page=2
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-Look

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-10-2014, 09:00 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 08:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Said the poster who can't spell, or write in correct English....
Christianity is preposterous on it's face,

*its
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