Jesus was NOT the Messiah
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29-10-2014, 09:08 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2014 09:33 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
Thank you.
I will now accept Jebus as my Lard and Savior as you have thoroughly addressed all of the points in the referenced posts.

Oh wait. You haven't addressed even one.
Oh well.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-10-2014, 09:19 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 07:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 06:46 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You want a primary source? Consider the following, (half way through the spiel) part of the dead sea scrolls, which were written, or at least compiled by, an Essene community. Note that the Nazarenes were, almost certainly, one version of the Essenes.

The Essenes were an Apocalyptic Jewish sect, and not a christian or quasi-christian one. There's no mention of Jesus, any of his followers, like James, or John the Baptist, Paul in any of their writings. They believed the end was near, and the messiah was coming. They were by all accounts Jewish, unlike Nazarene or Ebionetes who believed Jesus was the messiah.

So in reality you have no primary sources to confirm your suspicions as to what the Nazarenes believed, in contrast to the portrait painted by the early church fathers.

But I think I can figure out exactly how you derive all this. Your argument boils down to that fact, that the Nazerenes/Ebionetes, and the group Paul was opposing (I'm just sort of granting that they were all one in the same, even though this is pretty doubtful), were all very Jewish, particularly since they were unwilling to relinquish adherence to the Ritual Law, but unlike very jewish-jewish folks, they accepted that Jesus was the Messiah.

So merely on the basis that they were pretty jewish, and not on any primary sources indicating what they did and did not believe, you invent all sorts of shit claiming that they believed this and that, for no other reason other than they clung to these rituals laws.

Am I pretty correct in this assessment?

"The Essenes were an Apocalyptic Jewish sect, and not a christian or quasi-christian one."

HURRAH!

"There's no mention of Jesus, any of his followers, like James, or John the Baptist, Paul in any of their writings."

Ever wondered why? One possible reason is that these people never existed. Read that again. Another possible (in my opinion more likely) reason is that all apocalyptic literature was destroyed by the Romans and later by Christians. Only the dead sea scrolls survived because they were hidden in caves. Please read that again.

In fact, there may be references to James and Paul in the dead sea scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls, hidden until 1947, are like a time capsule that takes us back nearly 2000 years into this Jewish world as seen from their perspective, so they’re a unique and invaluable glimpse into the past, because Romans destroyed nearly all other Jewish messianic literature. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYTlkrUFSW4, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wneSV0FOsMA). Eisenman and other scholars, including Douglas Lockhart (http://douglaslockhart.com/) and Peter Cresswell, (http://jesustheterrorist.com/about-the-author.htm) claim that the scrolls include copies of James’ sermons thundering against “the Enemy” and “the Liar,” referring to someone daring to teach dogma at odds with the traditions of observant Jews. There’s only one likely candidate to whom James could be referring, and that’s Paul, whom he considered a traitor and Roman agent. (http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/james.htm). It’s ironic that Jesus’ brother may have referred to the creator of Christian theology as a liar. The Scrolls give us a far more realistic assessment of Jewish first-century Palestine than the Gospels. No wonder the Vatican had a strong interest in their interpretation in the decades after their discovery. (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/carme.htm).

Paul admitted that he was a liar. He wrote,
“For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?” (Rom. 3:7, KJB.)
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29-10-2014, 09:29 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 07:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 06:46 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You want a primary source? Consider the following, (half way through the spiel) part of the dead sea scrolls, which were written, or at least compiled by, an Essene community. Note that the Nazarenes were, almost certainly, one version of the Essenes.

The Essenes were an Apocalyptic Jewish sect, and not a christian or quasi-christian one. There's no mention of Jesus, any of his followers, like James, or John the Baptist, Paul in any of their writings. They believed the end was near, and the messiah was coming. They were by all accounts Jewish, unlike Nazarene or Ebionetes who believed Jesus was the messiah.

So in reality you have no primary sources to confirm your suspicions as to what the Nazarenes believed, in contrast to the portrait painted by the early church fathers.

But I think I can figure out exactly how you derive all this. Your argument boils down to that fact, that the Nazerenes/Ebionetes, and the group Paul was opposing (I'm just sort of granting that they were all one in the same, even though this is pretty doubtful), were all very Jewish, particularly since they were unwilling to relinquish adherence to the Ritual Law, but unlike very jewish-jewish folks, they accepted that Jesus was the Messiah.

So merely on the basis that they were pretty jewish, and not on any primary sources indicating what they did and did not believe, you invent all sorts of shit claiming that they believed this and that, for no other reason other than they clung to these rituals laws.

Am I pretty correct in this assessment?

"So in reality you have no primary sources to confirm your suspicions as to what the Nazarenes believed"

WRONG.

We know a lot about the political, social and religious climate in Yeshua’s day from sources such as Josephus, Philo and the Dead Sea scrolls. Religion and politics were closely intertwined, because political power was employed using religion. Jewish identity, both nationalistic and religious, was derived from their fanatical belief in their one and only god, who they imagined had an interest in them and actively intervened in their affairs. Their scripture handed them a history, a set of laws, and a guide to what they could expect in the future. It also propped up the power of priests. Jews were clearly separate from non-Jewish people (Gentiles or “pagans.”)

The Essenes
We know a fair bit about them, not only from Flavius Josephus, (http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/josep...senes.htm) who may have been an Essene, but also from Philo Judaeus of Alexandria, and from the (probably) Essene Qumran community who hid the Dead Sea Scrolls.

They were a heterogeneous group, but some generalizations can be made about them. They were well respected amongst most Jews. Josephus numbered them at about four thousand, and writes they had a strong affection for each other, and lived in groups scattered throughout Judea. They preferred to wear white and were particular about certain bathing rituals, including baptism. Most were celibate, which was quite unusual, as most Jews considered it as living an incomplete life. They rejected the pursuit of pleasure, preached poverty, humility, chastity, loving one’s neighbor, and penitence. They believed in a war between the forces of good and evil, and in the need for God’s grace. They strove to speak gently and quietly, to never swear, and were strong believers in justice and that all Jews were equal. They rejected the accumulation of wealth, and shared all their possessions. They claimed to love the truth and to never steal. Unlike the other Jewish sects, they spurned animal sacrifice. They thought of themselves as healers, to be able to cast out demons and restore the dead to life. They were said to foretell the future and to have little fear of death. They were convinced that after death their souls were destined for paradise, provided they had been righteous.

They deeply resented the Sadducees, so set up their own priesthood separate to the temple. They mistrusted most of the Pharisees, regarding them as corrupt or hypocritical.

Josephus leaves out one important fact about them; that many of them were intensely anti-Roman. We know this from the Dead Sea scrolls. Many authors have unknowingly misled modern readers by stating that Essenes were pacifists, which is true, yet once they’d decided God justified a war —a holy war—they would fight. Josephus was writing for a Roman audience, and was trying to present his countrymen in the best possible light, so this omission is understandable.

Yeshua the Essene
I think Yeshua was an Essene, for the following reasons. (http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/018...sene.php). They had many beliefs in common with those credited to Jesus. Some of the sayings attributed to Jesus are also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (yet his existence is never mentioned in them.) Jesus and his disciples pooled their funds, which were administered by a treasurer, a feature of Essene communities. Many scholars believe John the Baptist, who could have been Yeshua’s cousin, was an Essene. John baptized Yeshua, so Yeshua clearly had the same beliefs as him. (http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/jlgi/jlgi05.htm).

The Gospel’s writers and editors didn’t mention the existence of the Essenes even once. If it was suggested or implied that Yeshua and the disciples were Essenes, it would have meant they were too fundamentally Jewish and too anti Roman. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...nes.html).
One minor fact that doesn’t fit is that Yeshua and his disciples allegedly ate fish, and the Essenes were strict vegetarians.

There was a particular group of Essenes known as Nazarenes. I believe John, Yeshua, his family, and his disciples were all Nazarenes. Obviously, then, they were an important group.

The Nazarenes
Yeshua was a Nazarene, as stated in the bible: Acts referred to
“Jesus Christ the Nazarene” (Acts 2:22, 3:6, 4:10, 6:14, 22:8, 26:9, NJB.) Most Christians assume the term “Nazarene” referred to the fact that Jesus came from the village of Nazareth. This was, after all, what Matthew claimed, (Matt. 2:23) but Nazareth the place was probably not the real origin of the term. On (almost) every occasion that Jesus was referred to as being “of Nazareth,” the real meaning is “the Nazarene” (http://www.essene.com/What is a Nazarene.htm.) As mentioned, Nazareth the village probably didn’t exist in Yeshua’s time. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxEJHO8KIXY). Calling him Jesus “of Nazareth” was a ploy to distract from his sectarian affiliations. The bible made it clear the term “Nazarene” referred to a sect, when in the book of Acts, Paul is accused of being a Nazarene.

“The plain truth is that we find this man a perfect pest; he stirs up trouble among Jews the world over, and is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.” (Acts 24:5, NJB.) An important religious sect would not have been named after an obscure Galilean village.
Hugh Schonfield, who devoted his life to studying Judaism and Yeshua, claims Nazarenism was an ancient version of Judaism. (http://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A”Hugh J.Schonfield” AND subject%3A”Nazarenes”). He thought the original founder of the Nazarene sect may have been a Jewish-Arabian prophet named Essa in approximately 400 BCE. So, if he was right, they were already well established in Jesus’ time.

Many eminent scholars have linked the Nazarenes with the Essenian sect at Qumran. One might consider the Nazarene sect a strongly developed messianic form of “Essenism.” (http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/TrimmNazars.htm).

John the Baptist, Yeshua’s family, disciples and followers were all Nazarenes. The “pillars” Paul refers to (James, Peter, and John) in his second letter to the Galatians, were the leaders and key figures of this group after Yeshua’s death. They too were Jews, not Christians. They practiced circumcision, believed in baptism, and were strict about the Sabbath. They were vegetarians who didn’t approve of the slaughter of animals, either for food or sacrifice. They developed their own “Halacha,” which was their interpretation of the Torah. They were true believers in the power and glory of Israel, saw themselves as God’s chosen people, and were vehemently opposed to the Romans. I think they were zealots, willing to take the Romans on, which was why the Roman world considered a Nazarene “a pest” who “stirs up trouble among Jews the world over.”

They considered the temple was the house of God, but were opposed to the Sadducees who they regarded as Roman collaborators. They had a broad base of support among Jews throughout Judea and much of the Roman Empire. Many ordinary Jews and Pharisees would have considered the Nazarenes brothers in the struggle against Rome.

Yeshua became their chief after John the Baptist’s death, and he remained in charge for (probably) a few years. Leadership was inherited from blood relations, which explains it passing from John the Baptist to Yeshua, and after Yeshua’s death, on to James, his brother.

James and the other Nazarenes didn’t think Yeshua was the son of God, or that he needed to die to save anyone from their sins (http://www.petahtikvah.com/Articles/nazarenes.htm). They believed he was a (human) prophet who they hoped could be Israel’s messiah.

We read very little about this group in the pages of history because mainly Gentiles wrote that history, and the early Christians ignored the Nazarenes, or wrote them off as heretics, or tried to claim that some of them believed in the divinity of Christ.
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29-10-2014, 09:36 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 07:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 06:46 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You want a primary source? Consider the following, (half way through the spiel) part of the dead sea scrolls, which were written, or at least compiled by, an Essene community. Note that the Nazarenes were, almost certainly, one version of the Essenes.

The Essenes were an Apocalyptic Jewish sect, and not a christian or quasi-christian one. There's no mention of Jesus, any of his followers, like James, or John the Baptist, Paul in any of their writings. They believed the end was near, and the messiah was coming. They were by all accounts Jewish, unlike Nazarene or Ebionetes who believed Jesus was the messiah.

So in reality you have no primary sources to confirm your suspicions as to what the Nazarenes believed, in contrast to the portrait painted by the early church fathers.

But I think I can figure out exactly how you derive all this. Your argument boils down to that fact, that the Nazerenes/Ebionetes, and the group Paul was opposing (I'm just sort of granting that they were all one in the same, even though this is pretty doubtful), were all very Jewish, particularly since they were unwilling to relinquish adherence to the Ritual Law, but unlike very jewish-jewish folks, they accepted that Jesus was the Messiah.

So merely on the basis that they were pretty jewish, and not on any primary sources indicating what they did and did not believe, you invent all sorts of shit claiming that they believed this and that, for no other reason other than they clung to these rituals laws.

Am I pretty correct in this assessment?

"But I think I can figure out exactly how you derive all this. Your argument boils down to that fact, that the Nazerenes/Ebionetes, and the group Paul was opposing (I'm just sort of granting that they were all one in the same, even though this is pretty doubtful), were all very Jewish, particularly since they were unwilling to relinquish adherence to the Ritual Law..."

You haven't figured anything out. I've told you this again and again almost ad nauseam. You're too busy searching for clever things to say rather than actually reading what I've written.

"they accepted that Jesus was the Messiah."

Well, when Jesus was alive they probably hoped he was going to be the Messiah. But, he was killed before he'd achieved anything, so he could hardly have been a Messiah now, could he? Your boy fancied himself as a Messiah, but was spectacularly unsuccessful.
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29-10-2014, 09:39 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 07:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think the reason that mythicism gets a lot of traction, and a fervent following, is that the claims of mythicism are very attractive to opponents of Christianity, who see it as a sort of means to undermine it.

So when someone comes along who sounds all authoritative, claiming to have put in 15,000 hours of research, or that they're a student at Harvard Divinity, and have established a sort of trust solely because they're on the same side, the immediate response is to accept all the sweet sounding things they have to say whole cloth.

Most folks, in my experience, even those who claim to be skeptical, lack the stamina to go out and inquire about the validity of claims that they find so attractive, so they rarely ever do any leg work themselves. They sort of just go along with these authoritative sounding figures, believing that they've already done all the leg work, so there's no need to second guess them.

"Most folks, in my experience... lack the stamina to go out and inquire about the validity of claims that they find so attractive, so they rarely ever do any leg work themselves. They sort of just go along with these authoritative sounding figures, believing that they've already done all the leg work, so there's no need to second guess them."

OH THE IRONY!
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29-10-2014, 10:09 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
Quote:I think the reason that mythicism gets a lot of traction, and a fervent following, is that the claims of mythicism are very attractive to opponents of Christianity, who see it as a sort of means to undermine it.

Whereas people who swallow that bilge hook, line and sinker do so because,.... because.... oh, right. They desperately want it to be true.

Quote:Men willingly believe what they wish.

G. Julius Caesar

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29-10-2014, 10:20 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
Quote:"The Essenes were an Apocalyptic Jewish sect, and not a christian or quasi-christian one."


It's been a while since I read Josephus' long description of the Essenes in The Jewish War but I can't recall anything in there which indicates that they were waiting for an apocalypse at all. They were tradesmen and agriculturalists living in a communal setting.

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29-10-2014, 11:58 PM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 09:29 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "So in reality you have no primary sources to confirm your suspicions as to what the Nazarenes believed"

WRONG.


Again either you don't understand what I have been asking you all this time, or you're deliberately avoiding it. I already wrote as to what the Nazarene's believed, and provided the primary sources as to where I derived this from. There primary differences were that the may have not believed in the virgin birth (though according to Jerome, and Eusebius some did), subscribed to an Adoptionist view of Jesus, and adhered to Jewish Ritual Law, except in relationship to animal sacrifices, which they believed Jesus the perfect sacrifice took the place of. Eusebius even states that their ideas were similar in every other way except in this regard.

In the Epistles when Paul gets into a confrontation with these Christians, he explicitly states that the reason for this is in relationship to the role of the Jewish ritual laws, and at no point does he claim that this pertained to any other beliefs, or in regards to his view of Jesus. If Paul was opposing them in other important areas of doctrine he would have addressed that as well, but he does not, and see their dispute in relationship to this one particular but significant issue.

The same goes with the early church fathers who are combating their supposed heresy, with the only contentions addressed by them being their adherence to the ritual laws, the virgin birth, and an Adoptionist view of Jesus. Nothing else. If there were any other fundamental points of disagreement they likely would have addressed those too, rather than portray the ebionitees/nazerenes as similar in every other regard.

All the evidence we have is in support of this particular view of things, and this is something Ehrman even confirms in the previously quoted material.

You seem to disagree, and claim they believed a variety of other things regarding Jesus, and yet have not established a single one of them here in any primary source whatsoever. You pointed to the Esseness, which was a purely jewish sect, with no beliefs whatsoever regarding Jesus, or any of his followers.

You keep responding with these lengthy diatribes, that completely avoid the issues and concerns with your assumptions that I have raised over and over again.

The only thing I'm left to assume here is that you're so invested in this view of yours, that you are unable to see how exactly it doesn't hold up, or recognize how much of your views are based on you reading more into these primary sources than is actually there. Either that or your deliberately trying to avoid addressing the concerns I've raised.

Quote:We know a lot about the political, social and religious climate in Yeshua’s day from sources such as Josephus, Philo and the Dead Sea scrolls.

Yep, no disagreement.

Quote: The Essenes
We know a fair bit about them, not only from Flavius Josephus, (http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/josep...s.htm)..., but also from Philo Judaeus of Alexandria, and from the (probably) Essene Qumran community who hid the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Yep, no disagreement.

Quote:They were a heterogeneous group, but some generalizations can be made about them. They were well respected amongst most Jews. Josephus numbered them at about four thousand, and writes they had a strong affection for each other, and lived in groups scattered throughout Judea. They preferred to wear white and were particular about certain bathing rituals, including baptism. Most were celibate, which was quite unusual, as most Jews considered it as living an incomplete life. They rejected the pursuit of pleasure, preached poverty, humility, chastity, loving one’s neighbor, and penitence. They believed in a war between the forces of good and evil, and in the need for God’s grace. They strove to speak gently and quietly, to never swear, and were strong believers in justice and that all Jews were equal. They rejected the accumulation of wealth, and shared all their possessions. They claimed to love the truth and to never steal. Unlike the other Jewish sects, they spurned animal sacrifice. They thought of themselves as healers, to be able to cast out demons and restore the dead to life. They were said to foretell the future and to have little fear of death. They were convinced that after death their souls were destined for paradise, provided they had been righteous.

Again, no really disagreement here from me.

Quote:They deeply resented the Sadducees, so set up their own priesthood separate to the temple. They mistrusted most of the Pharisees, regarding them as corrupt or hypocritical.

Yep, no disagreement.

Quote:Josephus leaves out one important fact about them; that many of them were intensely anti-Roman. We know this from the Dead Sea scrolls. Many authors have unknowingly misled modern readers by stating that Essenes were pacifists, which is true, yet once they’d decided God justified a war —a holy war—they would fight. Josephus was writing for a Roman audience, and was trying to present his countrymen in the best possible light, so this omission is understandable.

Far as I know they weren't pacifist, or big fans of Rome either.

Quote:Yeshua the Essene
I think Yeshua was an Essene, for the following reasons. (http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/018...sene.php). They had many beliefs in common with those credited to Jesus.

Not surprising since they were all Jews living around the same time, in the same region, stewing in same milieu. Jesus also had a considerable amount of things in common with the Elder Hillel too.

Quote: Some of the sayings attributed to Jesus are also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (yet his existence is never mentioned in them.)

I couldn't find anything online showing a comparison of the sayings of Jesus with what's found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. So I find you accusation questionable, awaiting evidence.

Quote:Jesus and his disciples pooled their funds, which were administered by a treasurer, a feature of Essene communities.

And every community given to a sort of shared communal living.

Quote:Many scholars believe John the Baptist, who could have been Yeshua’s cousin, was an Essene. John baptized Yeshua, so Yeshua clearly had the same beliefs as him.

A minority of scholars, and the argument is a bit sketchy, and clearly these two weren't significant figures among the Essenes who at no place even acknowledged their existence.

What it's interesting though is that you seem to be arguing more for historicity than mythicism, and rather than a fictional Jesus, you seem to be arguing for one that was initially a part of the Essences community, and some of his sayings can even be found among them. You also claim a variety of things as to what this Jesus did or did not believe, that the real Jesus was just an ordinary man, believed by his followers to be the messiah.

Quote:The Gospel’s writers and editors didn’t mention the existence of the Essenes even once. If it was suggested or implied that Yeshua and the disciples were Essenes,

Nor did the Essenes mention Jesus or John the Baptist, or any of their followers lol.

Quote: The Nazarenes
Yeshua was a Nazarene, as stated in the bible: Acts referred to
“Jesus Christ the Nazarene”

Which was indicating his hometown, like Tom the New Yorker.

I'm curious as to here where you think the Nazarenes derived their own title from, if you don't think it's a reference to Jesus's hometown of Nazareth?

I know of two competing views, and I'm curious to hear which view you support.

Quote:As mentioned, Nazareth the village probably didn’t exist in Yeshua’s time. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxEJHO8KIXY).

No, it did exist, and we have various archaeological evidence in support of this, that I previously mentioned. Using a video citing a book by a musician, doesn't bode well for your case.

Quote:An important religious sect would not have been named after an obscure Galilean village.

You mean an important religious sect wouldn't have named themselves after the hometown of their founder, who himself was often referred to by others as a Nazarene because of this?

Quote:Yeshua became their chief after John the Baptist’s death, and he remained in charge for (probably) a few years. Leadership was inherited from blood relations, which explains it passing from John the Baptist to Yeshua, and after Yeshua’s death, on to James, his brother.

Purely made up. Created in the same way, with as little facts, as your local conspiracy theory. Can you recognize that you're investing a great deal in creating a view with very few data points? Like Dan Brown, but of course he knew he was peddling fiction.


Quote:James and the other Nazarenes didn’t think Yeshua was the son of God, or that he needed to die to save anyone from their sins.

This is exactly what they believed.

To quote Ehrman:

."..the Ebionites believed that Jesus was a real flesh-and-blood human like the rest of us, born as the eldest son of the sexual union of his parents, Joseph and Mary. What set Jesus apart from all other people was that he kept God’s law perfectly and so was the most righteous man on earth. As such, God chose him to be his son and assigned to him a special mission, to sacrifice himself for the sake of others. Jesus then went to the cross, not as a punishment for his own sins but for the sins of the world, a perfect sacrifice in fulfillment of all God’s promises to his people, the Jews, in the holy Scriptures. As a sign of his acceptance of Jesus’ sacrifice, God then raised Jesus from the dead and exalted him to heaven.

It appears that Ebionite Christians also believed that since Jesus was the perfect, ultimate, final sacrifice for sins, there was no longer any need for the ritual sacrifice of animals. Jewish sacrifices, therefore, were understood to be a temporary and imperfect measure provided by God to atone for sins until the perfect atoning sacrifice should be made. "

-Ehrman, Bart D. (2003-10-02). Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew (Kindle Locations 2183-2185). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

Quote:We read very little about this group in the pages of history because mainly Gentiles wrote that history, and the early Christians ignored the Nazarenes, or wrote them off as heretics, or tried to claim that some of them believed in the divinity of Christ.

This is kind of the point. There's very little about them in the pages of history, other than this. So when you are prescribing all sorts of beliefs to them, that are not found within the pages of history, or contrary to it, you are in fact making it up as you go along.
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30-10-2014, 02:14 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 11:58 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 09:29 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "So in reality you have no primary sources to confirm your suspicions as to what the Nazarenes believed"

WRONG.


Again either you don't understand what I have been asking you all this time, or you're deliberately avoiding it. I already wrote as to what the Nazarene's believed, and provided the primary sources as to where I derived this from. There primary differences were that the may have not believed in the virgin birth (though according to Jerome, and Eusebius some did), subscribed to an Adoptionist view of Jesus, and adhered to Jewish Ritual Law, except in relationship to animal sacrifices, which they believed Jesus the perfect sacrifice took the place of. Eusebius even states that their ideas were similar in every other way except in this regard.

In the Epistles when Paul gets into a confrontation with these Christians, he explicitly states that the reason for this is in relationship to the role of the Jewish ritual laws, and at no point does he claim that this pertained to any other beliefs, or in regards to his view of Jesus. If Paul was opposing them in other important areas of doctrine he would have addressed that as well, but he does not, and see their dispute in relationship to this one particular but significant issue.

The same goes with the early church fathers who are combating their supposed heresy, with the only contentions addressed by them being their adherence to the ritual laws, the virgin birth, and an Adoptionist view of Jesus. Nothing else. If there were any other fundamental points of disagreement they likely would have addressed those too, rather than portray the ebionitees/nazerenes as similar in every other regard.

All the evidence we have is in support of this particular view of things, and this is something Ehrman even confirms in the previously quoted material.

You seem to disagree, and claim they believed a variety of other things regarding Jesus, and yet have not established a single one of them here in any primary source whatsoever. You pointed to the Esseness, which was a purely jewish sect, with no beliefs whatsoever regarding Jesus, or any of his followers.

You keep responding with these lengthy diatribes, that completely avoid the issues and concerns with your assumptions that I have raised over and over again.

The only thing I'm left to assume here is that you're so invested in this view of yours, that you are unable to see how exactly it doesn't hold up, or recognize how much of your views are based on you reading more into these primary sources than is actually there. Either that or your deliberately trying to avoid addressing the concerns I've raised.

Quote:We know a lot about the political, social and religious climate in Yeshua’s day from sources such as Josephus, Philo and the Dead Sea scrolls.

Yep, no disagreement.

Quote: The Essenes
We know a fair bit about them, not only from Flavius Josephus, (http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/josep...s.htm)..., but also from Philo Judaeus of Alexandria, and from the (probably) Essene Qumran community who hid the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Yep, no disagreement.

Quote:They were a heterogeneous group, but some generalizations can be made about them. They were well respected amongst most Jews. Josephus numbered them at about four thousand, and writes they had a strong affection for each other, and lived in groups scattered throughout Judea. They preferred to wear white and were particular about certain bathing rituals, including baptism. Most were celibate, which was quite unusual, as most Jews considered it as living an incomplete life. They rejected the pursuit of pleasure, preached poverty, humility, chastity, loving one’s neighbor, and penitence. They believed in a war between the forces of good and evil, and in the need for God’s grace. They strove to speak gently and quietly, to never swear, and were strong believers in justice and that all Jews were equal. They rejected the accumulation of wealth, and shared all their possessions. They claimed to love the truth and to never steal. Unlike the other Jewish sects, they spurned animal sacrifice. They thought of themselves as healers, to be able to cast out demons and restore the dead to life. They were said to foretell the future and to have little fear of death. They were convinced that after death their souls were destined for paradise, provided they had been righteous.

Again, no really disagreement here from me.

Quote:They deeply resented the Sadducees, so set up their own priesthood separate to the temple. They mistrusted most of the Pharisees, regarding them as corrupt or hypocritical.

Yep, no disagreement.

Quote:Josephus leaves out one important fact about them; that many of them were intensely anti-Roman. We know this from the Dead Sea scrolls. Many authors have unknowingly misled modern readers by stating that Essenes were pacifists, which is true, yet once they’d decided God justified a war —a holy war—they would fight. Josephus was writing for a Roman audience, and was trying to present his countrymen in the best possible light, so this omission is understandable.

Far as I know they weren't pacifist, or big fans of Rome either.

Quote:Yeshua the Essene
I think Yeshua was an Essene, for the following reasons. (http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/018...sene.php). They had many beliefs in common with those credited to Jesus.

Not surprising since they were all Jews living around the same time, in the same region, stewing in same milieu. Jesus also had a considerable amount of things in common with the Elder Hillel too.

Quote: Some of the sayings attributed to Jesus are also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (yet his existence is never mentioned in them.)

I couldn't find anything online showing a comparison of the sayings of Jesus with what's found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. So I find you accusation questionable, awaiting evidence.

Quote:Jesus and his disciples pooled their funds, which were administered by a treasurer, a feature of Essene communities.

And every community given to a sort of shared communal living.

Quote:Many scholars believe John the Baptist, who could have been Yeshua’s cousin, was an Essene. John baptized Yeshua, so Yeshua clearly had the same beliefs as him.

A minority of scholars, and the argument is a bit sketchy, and clearly these two weren't significant figures among the Essenes who at no place even acknowledged their existence.

What it's interesting though is that you seem to be arguing more for historicity than mythicism, and rather than a fictional Jesus, you seem to be arguing for one that was initially a part of the Essences community, and some of his sayings can even be found among them. You also claim a variety of things as to what this Jesus did or did not believe, that the real Jesus was just an ordinary man, believed by his followers to be the messiah.

Quote:The Gospel’s writers and editors didn’t mention the existence of the Essenes even once. If it was suggested or implied that Yeshua and the disciples were Essenes,

Nor did the Essenes mention Jesus or John the Baptist, or any of their followers lol.

Quote: The Nazarenes
Yeshua was a Nazarene, as stated in the bible: Acts referred to
“Jesus Christ the Nazarene”

Which was indicating his hometown, like Tom the New Yorker.

I'm curious as to here where you think the Nazarenes derived their own title from, if you don't think it's a reference to Jesus's hometown of Nazareth?

I know of two competing views, and I'm curious to hear which view you support.

Quote:As mentioned, Nazareth the village probably didn’t exist in Yeshua’s time. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxEJHO8KIXY).

No, it did exist, and we have various archaeological evidence in support of this, that I previously mentioned. Using a video citing a book by a musician, doesn't bode well for your case.

Quote:An important religious sect would not have been named after an obscure Galilean village.

You mean an important religious sect wouldn't have named themselves after the hometown of their founder, who himself was often referred to by others as a Nazarene because of this?

Quote:Yeshua became their chief after John the Baptist’s death, and he remained in charge for (probably) a few years. Leadership was inherited from blood relations, which explains it passing from John the Baptist to Yeshua, and after Yeshua’s death, on to James, his brother.

Purely made up. Created in the same way, with as little facts, as your local conspiracy theory. Can you recognize that you're investing a great deal in creating a view with very few data points? Like Dan Brown, but of course he knew he was peddling fiction.


Quote:James and the other Nazarenes didn’t think Yeshua was the son of God, or that he needed to die to save anyone from their sins.

This is exactly what they believed.

To quote Ehrman:

."..the Ebionites believed that Jesus was a real flesh-and-blood human like the rest of us, born as the eldest son of the sexual union of his parents, Joseph and Mary. What set Jesus apart from all other people was that he kept God’s law perfectly and so was the most righteous man on earth. As such, God chose him to be his son and assigned to him a special mission, to sacrifice himself for the sake of others. Jesus then went to the cross, not as a punishment for his own sins but for the sins of the world, a perfect sacrifice in fulfillment of all God’s promises to his people, the Jews, in the holy Scriptures. As a sign of his acceptance of Jesus’ sacrifice, God then raised Jesus from the dead and exalted him to heaven.

It appears that Ebionite Christians also believed that since Jesus was the perfect, ultimate, final sacrifice for sins, there was no longer any need for the ritual sacrifice of animals. Jewish sacrifices, therefore, were understood to be a temporary and imperfect measure provided by God to atone for sins until the perfect atoning sacrifice should be made. "

-Ehrman, Bart D. (2003-10-02). Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew (Kindle Locations 2183-2185). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

Quote:We read very little about this group in the pages of history because mainly Gentiles wrote that history, and the early Christians ignored the Nazarenes, or wrote them off as heretics, or tried to claim that some of them believed in the divinity of Christ.

This is kind of the point. There's very little about them in the pages of history, other than this. So when you are prescribing all sorts of beliefs to them, that are not found within the pages of history, or contrary to it, you are in fact making it up as you go along.

Is there anyone reading this thread apart from Tomasia here who would like me to answer his questions? I've already addressed more than half of them... he just hasn't read my answers. I'm not sure whether I have the enthusiasm to delve into all the details when he's probably just going to repeat what he thought before I addressed the question. I also don't want to piss everyone off by being a repetitive bore, so I'm not going to answer unless someone else wants me to. Tomasia, I suggest you go back and reread some of my posts slowly. I admit there is a lot of information on there and it must be all new to you, and you don't like what you read because it contradicts what you have always thought, but if you're genuinely interested you should take the trouble.
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30-10-2014, 02:27 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(29-10-2014 10:20 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:"The Essenes were an Apocalyptic Jewish sect, and not a christian or quasi-christian one."


It's been a while since I read Josephus' long description of the Essenes in The Jewish War but I can't recall anything in there which indicates that they were waiting for an apocalypse at all. They were tradesmen and agriculturalists living in a communal setting.

Don't forget that it was almost certainly an Essene community that hid the dead sea sea scrolls, and the scrolls contain her a lot of apocalyptic literature.
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