Jesus was NOT the Messiah
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
26-10-2014, 12:36 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(26-10-2014 12:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The fact that Jesus died at the hands of mob violence, and was crucified by the Romans, in ways unlike a typical jewish sacrifice indicates that the source of this story wasn't borrowed from the OT, but rather a historical predicament, and an unexpected one at that, that they had to make sense of after the fact.

If he existed, Jesus didn't die from "mob violence". Jerusalem was strictly and powerfully occupied by Rome. Under standing order, during the Pax Romana, trouble-makers were summarily executed with no trial. He (supposedly) overturned the tables of the money changers in a city built entirely on the Temple economy, which was a direct threat to the priests, and civil order. He MORE than deserved to die by the standards of the day. He caused his own death, if any of it is true.

You REALLY should take a few History courses.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
26-10-2014, 12:46 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(25-10-2014 11:48 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  no clue what we're even discussing.

This is just too funny. The jumping off point of our little side argument, was your response to a comment I made to someone else, which was in regard to Christian views, not Jewish views. And it’s about time you take responsibility for clearly misunderstanding my initial remarks, which were fairly explicit on this point.

Quote:You "provided" no such thing. You quoted a Wiki assertion, concerning a non-existent "majority" which you still have failed to provide support for. Then you quoted two "Church Fathers"that you claimed were "early" who were not "early". ….
There are no goal posts being moved here.

Except of course when you claim “early” christian beliefs doesn’t apply to second century beliefs. A point even wikipedia would disagree with you on:

"Early Christianity is the period of Christianity preceding the First Council of Nicaea in 325." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity

And the fact the we have established that Christians have long drawn a connection between the Isaac story and Jesus, but you can’t even concede this much, and have devoted yourself to arguing if it’s a “majority” christian view or not, and if “early” is early enough for you, lol. Your arguments have moved from the realm of reasonable, to that of a cranky old uncle, who is arguing merely for arguments sake. I’m sure at this point you understand that you were wrong here, but all that pride is rendering you incapable of confessing this.

Quote:Really? Are YOU in Divinity School at Harvard.
Guess who is ?

Why do I doubt this? Either that or Harvard Divinity School puts out some really poor graduates.

But assuming you are in fact telling the truth, you seem to support the view held by mythicist, that Jesus did not exist, in contrast to folks like Bart Ehrman. Is this view of Jesus held by any of your professors at Harvard Divinity school? If so, I would like to know which ones?

Quote:First of all you said "illusions" (twice), not "allusions", (which calls into question your education level).

I'm sorry if this mistake on my part brings into question my education level, but I can assure you that these sorts of mistakes are not representative of this, and have to do with other reasons, than ones I care to go into here. I'll try and be more careful next time though.

But as far as my education goes, I'm currently studying as a Rhode Scholar at the prestigious Patriot University of Del Norte, as a double doctorate major in Cosmetology and Applied Physics.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2014, 01:05 AM (This post was last modified: 26-10-2014 01:16 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(25-10-2014 11:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It appears you're someone given to talking out of both sides of your mouth.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it....Aristotle.

(25-10-2014 11:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Except of course when you claim “early” christian beliefs doesn’t apply to second century beliefs. A point even wikipedia would disagree with you on:

Since I have a real education, and have proven it over and over here for about two years now, I can quote real scholars, unlike you who can only quote the CE and Wiki.

(25-10-2014 11:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But assuming you are in fact telling the truth, you seem to support the view held by mythicist, that Jesus did not exist, in contrast to folks like Bart Ehrman. Is this view of Jesus held by any of your professors at Harvard Divinity school? If so, I would like to know which ones?

Guess you'll have to TRY to get in to find out. Do you also doubt Dr. Carrier's credentials ?

(25-10-2014 11:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But as far as my education goes, I'm currently studying as a Rhode Scholar at the prestigious Patriot University of Del Norte, as a double doctorate major in Cosmetology and Applied Physics.


Sure you are, you lying son of a bitch.

It's "Rhodes Scholar" .. if you were one, you would not be going to that piece of shit school, AND you would know how to spell Cecil Rhodes' name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Scholarship

Patriot Bible University (PBU), formerly known as Patriot University, is an unaccredited Independent Baptist correspondence school located in Del Norte, Colorado which issues religious degrees only. According to the State of Colorado, Patriot's "degrees or diplomas have no state recognition". PBU is not accredited by any agency recognized by the Department of Education. It has been called a diploma mill, lacking sufficient academic standards to award degrees.

Jebus no likey that shit.

Have fun living in your "illusions". Maybe PBU could offer you a correspondence course in English 101.

LMFAO.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
26-10-2014, 01:13 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(25-10-2014 11:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If I were inventing a fictional Messiah Jesus, what sense would it make to have to read aspects of his life back into scripture, when I could have just created his fictional life as faithful as possible to these scriptures? Why claim he was from nazareth, when I could have just made it that he was born in Bethlehem, rather that create some convoluted story about a census to attach his life to messianic prophecies?

euhemerization

Etymology
Named after Euhemeros, who believed that the ancient Greek gods were once mortal.

Noun
euhemerization (plural euhemerizations)
1 - The interpretation of myths as historical events.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/euhemerization


Euhemerism
Euhemerism is a rationalizing method of interpretation, which treats mythological accounts as a reflection of historical events, or mythological characters as historical personages but which were shaped, exaggerated or altered by retelling and traditional mores. It was named for its creator Euhemerus. In more recent literature of myth, such as in Bulfinch's Mythology, Euhemerism is called the "historical interpretation" of mythology. Euhemerism is defined in modern academic literature as the theory that myths are distorted accounts of real historical events. Euhemerus was not the first to attempt to rationalize mythology through history, as euhemeristic views are found in earlier writers, including Xenophanes, Herodotus, Hecataeus of Abdera and Ephorus. However, Euhemerus is credited as having developed the theory in application to all myths, considering mythology to be "history in disguise".


Christ myth theory
In his 2011 book, The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems, former Baptist pastor and double PhD in religious studies Robert M. Price supported the Christ myth theory when he wrote "the story of Jesus which we have, in every form, remains a redemption myth constructed along the lines of the universal mythic hero archetype, with no “secular,” biographical material left over. When we are done dismantling the records and we begin ghoulishly picking through the scanty remains for clues to an underlying “historical Jesus,” like people scavenging gold from the teeth and fingers of the battlefield dead, are we perhaps engaging in Euhemerism?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euhemerism


The nativity stories are such a mess very likely because the author was trying to cram a myth into history (and failing miserably).



(25-10-2014 11:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It appears you're someone given to talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Was there already some non-messiah mythical Jesus story going around, whom the writers felt was the messiah, and they had to squeeze the early narratives of this pre-existent to fulfill OT prophecies?

Yes, there was a Jewish mythical being called Jesus that was the high priest of god's temple in heaven. So an entirely spiritual and mythical being already existed in Jewish myths and predated the start of Christianity.



(25-10-2014 11:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If so, why would they have needed to do this?

Why does anyone 'need' to do any of these things?


(25-10-2014 11:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Was the story of this early non-messiah fictional Jesus, well known by their early readers, that the writers couldn't deny elements such as him being fictionally born in Nazereth?

The Nazareth bit is probably a misinterpretation, as it was probably originally Nazirite (like Sampson, they didn't cut their hair and avoided alcohol and dead bodies, among other vows).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazirite

Also, just how well informed and skeptic did you think people were in first century Judea and Palastine? We now live in the information age with global telecommunications, near universal literacy in the developed world, and we've put a man on the fucking moon; and yet we still have to deal with BigFoot and Elvis sightings, the Loch Ness monster, Scientology, and the Heaven's Gate cult. The idea that 'if Jesus didn't really exist, people would have called it out back then' is complete and utter weak-sauce bullshit.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
26-10-2014, 01:20 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(26-10-2014 01:05 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(25-10-2014 11:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But as far as my education goes, I'm currently studying as a Rhode Scholar at the prestigious Patriot University of Del Norte, as a double doctorate major in Cosmetology and Applied Physics.


Sure you are, you lying son of a bitch.

It's "Rhodes Scholar" .. if you were one, you would not be going to that piece of shit school, AND you would know how to spell Cecil Rhodes' name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Scholarship

Patriot Bible University (PBU), formerly known as Patriot University, is an unaccredited Independent Baptist correspondence school located in Del Norte, Colorado which issues religious degrees only. According to the State of Colorado, Patriot's "degrees or diplomas have no state recognition". PBU is not accredited by any agency recognized by the Department of Education. It has been called a diploma mill, lacking sufficient academic standards to award degrees.

Jebus no likey that shit.

Have fun living in your "illusions". Maybe PBU could offer you a correspondence course in English 101.

LMFAO.

Oh come on Bucky, once someone lets drop that they're going to Patriot (Bible) University, there are only two possibilities.

1 - Complete and utter moron.

2 - Internet Troll


For a refresher, here is a picture of the prestigious grounds of Patriot (Bible) University in scenic Del Norte, Colorado.

[Image: PatriotUniv2.jpg]

Yes, this is Kent Hovind's alma mater. Also remember that he 'graduated' with a mess of a 'doctoral thesis' that anyone of us here could have pulled out of our asses at 4am with a pack of Redbull.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind...sertations

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
26-10-2014, 01:25 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(26-10-2014 12:36 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If he existed, Jesus didn't die from "mob violence". Jerusalem was strictly and powerfully occupied by Rome. Under standing order, during the Pax Romana, trouble-makers were summarily executed with no trial. He (supposedly) overturned the tables of the money changers in a city built entirely on the Temple economy, which was a direct threat to the priests, and civil order. He MORE than deserved to die by the standards of the day. He caused his own death, if any of it is true.

So you don't believe Jesus existed, but want to argue that he was killed because of the temple incident?

But as far as supposedly fictional Jesus of the gospels, do you agree that he was killed in these narratives by a mob, in the same way that nearly all myths regarding dying and rising god-figures, involve an angry mob that at least serves as a catalyst to their eventual deaths? The gospel writers do seem to emplicate the jews as playing a role in Jesus's crucifixion. You can at the very least agree with this right?

Assuming Jesus did exist, and was killed by the Romans as you say because of the temple incident, do you believe that there was Jewish opposition to Jesus as well, that they would likely have desired his death just at least as much as the Roman Authorities? If so, for what reasons?

And secondly is your view that Jesus was killed because of the temple incident, the view held by most scholars, or just one among many competing views?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2014, 01:34 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(26-10-2014 01:20 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Oh come on Bucky, once someone lets drop that they're going to Patriot (Bible) University, there are only two possibilities.

1 - Complete and utter moron.

2 - Internet Troll

Or option 3, that I was just joking, and making fun of Bucky bringing up Harvard Divinity School, a joke that should have been pretty obvious when I said I was double majoring in Cosmetology and Astro Physics.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2014, 01:35 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(26-10-2014 01:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-10-2014 12:36 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If he existed, Jesus didn't die from "mob violence". Jerusalem was strictly and powerfully occupied by Rome. Under standing order, during the Pax Romana, trouble-makers were summarily executed with no trial. He (supposedly) overturned the tables of the money changers in a city built entirely on the Temple economy, which was a direct threat to the priests, and civil order. He MORE than deserved to die by the standards of the day. He caused his own death, if any of it is true.

So you don't believe Jesus existed, but want to argue that he was killed because of the temple incident?

Learn to read context. Here, I'll show you how.

"He MORE than deserved to die by the standards of the day. He caused his own death, if any of it is true. "

I highlighted the important bit for you. Bucky just told you what would likely have happened, given the context of the time and place. Had someone attempted to do what Jesus is described as doing in the Gospels, he would have been killed on the spot; none of this cloak and dagger bullshit with a trail before the Sanhedrin on Passover (which would never happen, and even then, they'd have waited until after Passover to execute him).


(26-10-2014 01:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But as far as supposedly fictional Jesus of the gospels, do you agree that he was killed in these narratives by a mob, in the same way that nearly all myths regarding dying and rising god-figures, involve an angry mob that at least serves as a catalyst to their eventual deaths?

That's funny, I don't remember mobs in the Passion of Romulus or Mythras (and yes, it is the exact same word in Greek across the board). But I could be wrong, and if I am, Bucky will be quick to point it out.



(26-10-2014 01:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The gospel writers do seem to emplicate the jews as playing a role in Jesus's crucifixion. You can at the very least agree with this right?

*implicate
*Jews

Sure, that's the great thing about fiction, you can write whatever you like. The author of the Lord of the Rings also implicated that orcs may have had a hand in the death of Boromir. Rolleyes

[Image: boromir28.jpg]

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(26-10-2014 01:34 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-10-2014 01:20 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Oh come on Bucky, once someone lets drop that they're going to Patriot (Bible) University, there are only two possibilities.

1 - Complete and utter moron.

2 - Internet Troll

Or option 3, that I was just joking, and making fun of Bucky bringing up Harvard Divinity School, a joke that should have been pretty obvious when I said I was double majoring in Cosmetology and Astro Physics.

Your sarcasm is indistinguishable form your idiocy, so there is that. Drinking Beverage

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
26-10-2014, 01:49 AM
RE: Jesus was NOT the Messiah
(26-10-2014 01:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And secondly is your view that Jesus was killed because of the temple incident, the view held by most scholars, or just one among many competing views?

Relevance?

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: