Jesus was a terrorist!
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18-06-2011, 01:10 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 01:25 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
(17-06-2011 11:38 PM)pilgrim Wrote:  
(17-06-2011 06:05 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  First century Galilee was a hotbed of political unrest. Peasant Galileans hated their Roman oppressors. I believe if we read the gospels bearing this in mind we get very strong hints of who the real Jesus was. For example Jesus said

"From the time of John the Baptist the Kingdom of heaven has been advancing violently, and the violent take it by force." (Matthew 11;12)
Huh The kind of reasoning this represents can be used to “prove” almost anything about anyone. If it’s only history, a bit of serious investigation will lead to sounder conclusions. If it's a modern situation, the consequences can be dangerous.

To take a snippet or two from an unreliable source, combine it with a broad generalization about a culture one never experienced and draw a dramatic conclusion is exactly the kind of logic that George W used to invade Iraq.

Dear pilgrim, you haven't made your point clearly.

I think you are suggesting I should do some "serious investigation". Seeing you raised that topic, I'll mention that I've spent the last 5 years seriously investigating the life and times of Jesus, his contemporaries and the Bible. That does not mean that I am right and you are wrong, but it should suggest to you that just maybe you should be a little more open minded.

I have yet to present a whole body of evidence to back up my conclusions (one can't open a thread with a 30 page tome). I suggest you cool your jets, put your prejudices aside, try not to be derogatory (yes....to compare me to George W Bush has to be taken as an insult) and follow the thread.

If you have "sounder conclusions" of your own, let's hear them....that's what the forum is for, but don't just hint that you know better than me without proving it.

ps I agree with you that the Bible is "an unreliable source". However if we totally dismiss the Bible we have absolutely nothing to discuss about Jesus. There is no first century source that mentions Jesus outside the Bible (other than for perhaps the Gospel of Thomas). So to understand "Jesus" we have to make some educated assumptions about him derived from the Bible, and marry them with what we know about Palestine and judaism in the first century.


(17-06-2011 10:36 PM)blasphemy fan Wrote:  I have never felt any need to read something so useless as the bible, but I would be interested to see more of the evidence that the zombie was also a terrorist. It really doesn't seem all that far fetched that the idiots promoting the zombie folklore would put it (him?) in this such light. To me, given the bible's accounts of the nameless one's misadventures in diplomacy. this seems like a natural progression.

What they ( the writers of the bible ) actually created was the perfectly dysfunctional family of omnipotent beings!

Siggy Freud & God in "Analyze This! Part 3" Tongue

Seth should do a video on that movie idea!

Hi Blasphemy fan. Thanks for your interest. To understand the real Jesus, and to begin to appreciate that he was a terrorist who tried to start a war with Rome, it really helps to have a clear understandinf of the political climate in 1st century Palestine. So permit me to cut and paste a section from my book on this very topic, and apologies if anyone has read some of this in another thread...
The Political Climate in Palestine

“…the Jews discovered a fierce impatience of the dominion of Rome, which repeatedly broke out in the most furious massacres and insurrections...and we are tempted to applaud the severe retaliation which was exercised by the arms of the legions against a race of fanatics, whose dire and credulous superstition seemed to render them the implacable enemies not only of the Roman government, but of human kind. The enthusiasm of the Jews was supported by the opinion, that it was unlawful for them to pay taxes to an idolatrous master; and by the flattering promise which they derived from their ancient oracles, that a conquering Messiah would soon arise, destined to break their fetters, and to invest the favourites of heaven with the empire of the earth.”
(Edward Gibbon)
Romans ruled Palestinian Jews. Palestine was an important strategic acquisition for Rome because it was on the trade route with Egypt, and Rome was quite dependent on Egyptian grain.

Herod “the Great” had laid siege to Jerusalem, the capital of the Jewish nation, in 37 BCE, with an army of Roman soldiers. It took them five months to capture the city after which he was installed as the puppet king of Judea. The Romans had a policy of installing locals as rulers by supporting the aristocratic families of the countries they invaded, as this helped wield control of the lower classes. Herod wanted the people to respect him as king of the Jews, but he lacked credibility mainly because he wasn’t a pure Jew, as his father was an Idumean. Herod thought anyone of the royal Jewish bloodline was a threat to his position. He deposed the last of the Jewish kings, Antigonus, and had him executed. He married a royal Jewish princess to shore up his claim to the crown, but later had her and her brother killed. Amazingly, because of his paranoia, he also had his own two sons by this marriage executed. The Roman emperor Augustus said
“I had sooner be Herod’s swine than his son”. (Cecil Roth, pg 92). Pigs were in no danger of being slaughtered in a Jewish household.

Throughout his life Herod tried to increase his prestige by undertaking some massive building projects. He remodelled the Temple in Jerusalem, employing 10,000 workers, and spared no expense. The Temple was the nerve centre of the Jewish nation. It was twice as large as today’s St. Paul’s cathedral in London and was truly magnificent to behold. It boasted Corinthian columns, lots of white marble and many plates of gold. It was famous throughout the empire. All Jerusalem lived in the shadow of this Temple.

He also constructed the whole new city port of Caesaria overlooking the Mediterranean. It had an artificial harbor and an Amphitheatre that held 20,000 spectators. He also built a temple to Augustus in Caesarea.
Herod’s architectural projects were thoroughly Hellenistic in design, other than for perhaps the Temple. This upset the Jews as they didn’t approve of public buildings that didn’t advertise the glory of Yahweh. To make matters worse Herod placed a massive golden eagle, the symbol of Roman dominion, over the great gate of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Most of the common Jews despised Herod. A real king needed to be one of them, a true Jew and a descendant of David, not someone who loved Greek culture, and not someone who was appointed by Romans. The peasant Jewish populace even despised their fellow Jews who supported Roman rule. Herod was also dictatorial and not particularly concerned about the plight of poor Jewish peasants. It was only by governing the country as a police state that he managed to avert open rebellion.
Herod Archelaus, one of Herod the Great's sons, took over as ruler of Galilee, a northern province of Palestine, when his father died in 4 BCE, quite possibly the year Jesus was born. He was such a brutal ruler Caesar replaced him after ten years and his brother, Herod Antipas, became the ruler of the region. This is the Herod who ordered the beheading of John the Baptist and who allegedly interrogated Jesus before he was crucified. He too was very ambitious and focused on shoring up his own credibility. He married a princess with royal Jewish blood to strengthen his claim of being a Jewish king and he continued his father's grandiose building projects. He rebuilt a city called Sepphoris, which was to become the capital of Galilee, eight kilometres north of the present day Nazareth. Construction occurred during Jesus' childhood and it is possible Jesus and some members of his family worked as labourers there. In about 19 CE, when Jesus was a young man, the city of Tiberias on the banks of the Sea of Galilee was under construction, 30 kilometres from today’s Nazareth. Jesus must have witnessed this magnificent city being built and would have walked through its streets. Today it is Northern Israel's most popular holiday resort.

The Herodian monarchies had to get the money for these projects from somewhere. Money was also needed to support the Roman infrastructure and army. It came from taxes paid by the already struggling peasant labour force and collected by the infamous tax collectors of the gospels. In the province of Syria income tax was 1 per cent of a man's income per year, but there were also export and import taxes, taxes levied on crops; one-tenth of the grain crop and one-fifth of the wine, fruit and oil - purchase taxes, taxes payable on the transfer of property, emergency taxes, and others. So anything from 20-40 per cent of the produce of the peasant workforce went into paying taxes. A Roman official called a censor was responsible for collecting the revenue, but he often sold the right to extort it to the highest bidders, men who demanded more money than was due and kept the difference for themselves. They commonly took bribes from the rich. It was the poor people who ended up paying most of the tax and they deeply resented the fact. It was very obvious to the peasant farmers of Galilee the aristocratic people who lived in the largest cities of Palestine were living off their backs.

Equally infuriating to most of the Jews was the fact that Romans appointed the High Priest, the chief religious figure of the Jewish nation. This meant the High Priest and the powerful aristocratic families associated with him supported Rome. All Jews traditionally looked up to the High Priest, who they expected to live a pure life, one devoted to the worship of their god. Yet the High Priest in Jesus’ day was not someone they could respect. A modern analogy would be the Catholic world today having a Pope and his cardinals appointed by an Islamic government.
Just how discontented the Jews of Galilee were with the Roman occupation was demonstrated by some events in 4 BCE, possibly the year Jesus was born. After a few decades of exploitation by Herod many common Jews thought his death was an opportune time to revolt. Three groups started insurrections against Rome. Judas, son of Ezekias, gathered together a band of Jewish supporters who broke into the royal armoury at Sepphoris and stole weapons and money. Further south at Jericho, 30 kilometres from Jerusalem, another Jew named Simon led a group who burnt down the royal palace. The third character was a shepherd named Athronges who raised a small army that roamed the countryside for a few months in opposition to the Romans. All three leaders thought they were the messiah and soon most of Galilee was in revolt. The Roman army responded quickly and with brutal force by marching into Galilee, burning towns and villages and crucifying anyone resisting Roman rule. Three thousand Jews were massacred. There must have been much terror and many innocent deaths. There is no mention of this in the gospels, yet Mary and Joseph and their extended families must have been involved, either as participants or as observers. Mary would have been a vulnerable young girl totally at the mercy of strong soldiers. It is possible Jesus’ biological father was a Roman soldier named Pantera who was part of the invading army. While that sounds very far-fetched and a little confronting, there is some evidence for it that the reader can look up for himself or herself on the Internet if they are interested.

Ten years later, in 6 CE, maybe when Jesus was about 10 years old, the Roman governor of Syria, Quirinius, undertook a census to work out who should be paying taxes to Rome. This sparked another revolt against the Romans, led by another Galilean character also named Judas, who many Galilean Jews also hoped was the messiah. The Jewish historian Josephus tells the story;
“There was one Judas, a Galilean, of a city whose name was Gamala, who, taking with him Zadok, a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt. Both said that this taxation was no better than an introduction to slavery, and exhorted the nation to assert their liberty; as if they could procure them happiness and security for what they possessed, and an assured enjoyment of a still greater good, which was that of the honour and glory they would thereby acquire for magnanimity. They also said that God would not otherwise be assisting to them, than upon their joining with one another in such councils as might be successful, and for their own advantage; and this especially, if they would set about great exploits, and not grow weary in executing the same. So men received what they said with pleasure, and this bold attempt proceeded to a great height.” The Romans gathered three legions and four regiments of cavalry and once again the movement was quickly and brutally suppressed. Judas’ army was routed and the Romans set fire to Sepphoris. This time 2000 Jews were killed. Jesus may have witnessed the battle from a distance. He might have seen the surviving members of Judas’ army crucified on wooden crosses and a long line of Jewish widows and their children marched off to slavery in Rome. Many Jews of the era were convinced their God would come to their aid in battles and a young Jesus may have been surprised and disappointed that didn’t happen. There is no mention of this war in the gospels because they were written and edited in an era when Jewish nationalism was a lost cause and to raise the topic was in bad taste. Neither Jewish nor gentile readers needed to be reminded of the violence and bad feeling of the times.

There is no doubt that in the decades before, during and after Jesus’ time many of the Palestinian Jews, and particularly the poor peasant Jews of Galilee, felt degraded and oppressed by the Romans who had killed or sold into slavery many of their relatives. Many Jewish Galilean peasants were even angry with their more urban fellow Jews who had partially assimilated into the Graeco-Roman culture.

A young pure-blooded Jew like Jesus would have hated the Romans with a passion. He would have regarded Romans as an inferior class of people, not God’s chosen, illegitimate impostors who ruled only by virtue of the fact they had a very powerful and brutal army. We should appreciate that Jesus’ audience were poor, oppressed peasants who suffered under the burdens of taxation, landlessness, unemployment and perceived religious discrimination.

From the Roman perspective, Galilee was considered a backwater; a festering wound that refused to become peaceful. Judea was considered a minor province. Its governor, who was Pontius Pilate from 26 to 36 CE., was known as a 'praefect' or 'procurator', and he came from the Roman equestrian class. He was subordinate to the legate of Syria at Damascus. He had at his disposal about 3,000 auxiliary soldiers, mostly stationed at Caesarea, the provincial capital of Judea, located on the Mediterranean coast, about 75 miles northwest of Jerusalem. A detachment of soldiers was kept as a garrison in Jerusalem. Pilate would make the trip to Jerusalem only when necessary. On festival occasions, such as the Jewish Passover, anything up to 3000 soldiers would be stationed in Jerusalem overlooking the Temple grounds.
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18-06-2011, 03:24 AM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
I always considered Jesus to be like communist/hippie. I didn't see him going around with bombs, blowing up things...

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
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18-06-2011, 03:39 AM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
Of course there were no bombs in the first century. There was swords and spears and fire.

Some of the chief priests and pharisees were well aware Jesus wanted to start a war with Rome...

“Many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary and had seen what he did believed in him but some of them went to tell the Pharisees what Jesus had done. Then the chief priests and Pharisees called a meeting. Here is this man working all these signs they said and what action are we taking? If we let him go on in this way everybody will believe in him and the Romans will come and destroy our Holy place and our nation...” (John 11:45-49 NJB). The chief priests and some Pharisees were clearly worried that if Jesus got too popular the Romans would destroy the Temple and the nation of Israel. This is precisely what happened 35 years later, in 70 CE, a fact well known to the author of John. Here it is in black and white; the Bible was clearing stating that Jesus was plotting to start a war with Rome, a war that the chief priests and Pharisees thought they would lose!
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18-06-2011, 07:57 PM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
HEY EVERYONE....

THIS IS A POWERFUL IDEA THAT IS WORTH SPREADING!

The Bible itself, when read with a critical eye, proves that Jesus was a Jewish freedom fighter.

This seriously undermines the Jesus/nice guy/son of god/saviour of everyone idea so beloved by Christians.

If we could get just some of them to wake up to the reality of who their hero figure really was, then we've made the world a better place.

I may just dreaming. What do you think?
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18-06-2011, 08:11 PM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
(18-06-2011 07:57 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  HEY EVERYONE....

THIS IS A POWERFUL IDEA THAT IS WORTH SPREADING!

The Bible itself, when read with a critical eye, proves that Jesus was a Jewish freedom fighter.

This seriously undermines the Jesus/nice guy/son of god/saviour of everyone idea so beloved by Christians.

If we could get just some of them to wake up to the reality of who their hero figure really was, then we've made the world a better place.

I may just dreaming. What do you think?

I think you're dreaming. The religious tend to possess super-human powers of denial and I'm sure they would use them on this topic (and any other that says maybe Jesus wasn't 100% perfect).

Pity really as it is a very interesting viewpoint that is worthy of serious consideration.

Is this an idea featured in your book or a newer one (possibly the basis of a second book)?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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18-06-2011, 09:29 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 09:35 PM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
I've been at work. So far I'm seeing your point. I do however feel that this is a very hard thing to suggest to christians. They would sacrifice any figure before Jesus. If it's presented subtly it will work fine in your book, but if it's a large theme then that will definitely hurt the interest of christian readers if any do read it.

I also would suggest a careful mixture of more historical information vs more biblical. If there is too much direct biblical information (even though christians can use it exclusively) it hurts the credibility of your book. As you want to say things that can be traced. When discussing things derived from scripture you'll need to identify them as ideas derived from scripture and not historical evidence. Unless you're making the book about how scripture negates christianity with historical information as supporting evidence.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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18-06-2011, 09:32 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 09:37 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
Hi Hughsie.

Yep...I might be dreaming...but....surely we owe it to our fellow men to help each other to discover truth?

I think that is what this forum is for, isn't it?

I have multiple themes in the book. Some of them are original. Thanks for asking. I will send you a private message with list of chapters (I don't want all my posts to be too long lol)
(18-06-2011 09:29 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I've been at work. So far I'm seeing your point. I do however feel that this is a very hard thing to suggest to christians. They would sacrifice any figure before Jesus. If it's presented subtly it will work fine in your book, but if it's a large theme then that will definitely hurt the interest of christian readers if any do read it.

I also would suggest a careful mixture of more historical information vs more biblical. If there is too much direct biblical information (even though christians can use it exclusively) it hurts the credibility of your book. As you want to say things that can be traced. When discussing things derived from scripture you'll need to identify them as ideas derived from scripture and not historicall evidence.

Thankyou. I do try to present it reasonably subtly, but that ain't easy.

Good point re scripture/historical information
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18-06-2011, 10:15 PM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
I like the reactions this thread has gotten, they have entertained me.
As for your theory as to whether Jesus was a terrorist or not I would have to agree, but maybe not for the same reasons. I also don't think he truly existed, not as a son of god or a son of man. But it doesn't matter, if he did he was a terrorist no doubt about it as far as I'm concerned. But a religious terrorist, not a political one although religion is political really. I don't know what I'm saying, the guy wasn't even real. This is like saying Paul Bunyan was a terrorist, even if it's true it doesn't matter.
The saying about how a terrorist is only a terrorist if you're on the other side of the fence is true. But an imaginary terrorist is the worst kind. I feel like I'm getting confused just because I want to argue something but I'm not sure what or why lol. Oh well. Good thread, fun to read, and whether anyone agrees or not at least it's educational.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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18-06-2011, 10:33 PM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
(18-06-2011 10:15 PM)lucradis Wrote:  I like the reactions this thread has gotten, they have entertained me.
As for your theory as to whether Jesus was a terrorist or not I would have to agree, but maybe not for the same reasons. I also don't think he truly existed, not as a son of god or a son of man. But it doesn't matter, if he did he was a terrorist no doubt about it as far as I'm concerned. But a religious terrorist, not a political one although religion is political really. I don't know what I'm saying, the guy wasn't even real. This is like saying Paul Bunyan was a terrorist, even if it's true it doesn't matter.
The saying about how a terrorist is only a terrorist if you're on the other side of the fence is true. But an imaginary terrorist is the worst kind. I feel like I'm getting confused just because I want to argue something but I'm not sure what or why lol. Oh well. Good thread, fun to read, and whether anyone agrees or not at least it's educational.

Hi Lucradis, nice to hear from you. I agree with you that Jesus may not have even existed. I do however believe there was a real life character who bears a passing resemblance to the guy in the gospels. I've posted this b4, but here goes again for anyone interested who hasn't read it yet...

"Did Jesus Actually Exist?
The Gospel writers of the 2nd and 3rd centuries were myth-makers and may not have even needed a genuine character as the foundation for the myth.

In the first century historians flourished, yet there are no contemporaries of Jesus who provide a surviving written record acknowledging his existence, with the exception of Paul, whose mythical Christ is a very different character to the man in the Gospels. Not one single contemporary government official, scribe, merchant, soldier or priest documented the tiniest detail about his existence.

Josephus (37-ca. 100 CE), a prolific and exhaustive Jewish historian who would frequently write a few pages on the execution of common Jewish thieves, has not one authentic line that mentions Jesus. So if Jesus existed, we must assume the most unfortunate demise of Josephus’ true historical record of him. It is very likely this is what happened because the early Christians would have destroyed any record of Jesus that didn’t fit with their manufactured image of him.

Justus of Tiberias (ca. 35-100 CE) was a first century Jewish author born in Galilee. He made extensive historical writings on contemporary Jewish history, but never mentioned the name of Jesus once, or if he did his record has been destroyed too.
Philo-Judæus, a prolific writer and historian, was an Alexandrian Jew, and he visited Jerusalem in the years Jesus was allegedly teaching and working miracles. He too fails to mention Jesus.

One would think Jewish religious officials would have a seriously large amount to say about Jesus, but that is not the case. The earliest references to him in the Judaic rabbinical literature were not written down before the third century and later and seem to bear little relation to the Jesus of the Gospels.

What about the Roman and Greek writers of the 1st century? There are no Roman records of Pilate's or Herod's dealings with Jesus. Edward Gibbon, writing in the latter half of the 18th century in his “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”, describes the absence of evidence for Jesus in Roman literature;
"How shall we excuse the supine inattention of the Pagan and philosophic world to those evidences which were presented by the hand of Omnipotence, not to their reason, but to their senses? During the age of Christ, of his apostles, and of their first disciples, the doctrine which they preached was confirmed by innumerable prodigies. The lame walked, the blind saw, the sick were healed, the dead were raised, demons were expelled, and the laws of nature were frequently suspended for the benefit of the Church. But the sages of Greece and Rome turned aside from the awful spectacle, and, pursuing the ordinary occupations of life and study, appeared unconscious of any alterations in the moral or physical government of the world.” Mr Gibbon devoted 20 or so years of his life to write his 17-volume work on the Roman Empire. It is the result of exhaustive research, so we can trust his comments are well researched.

Pliny the younger, a Roman, does mention the existence of Christians in Asia Minor in 112 CE, but says nothing about Jesus the person.
It is said that in 115 CE a Roman historian, Tacitus, makes the first mention of Jesus. However his notes about Jesus are not quoted by any of the Christian Fathers and have been shown to be forgeries. I only mention them because they are so often mentioned in pro Christian literature.

The existence of Jesus was not important enough to merit a single mention from any historian until at least 80 years after his death. This is undeniably remarkable. If Jesus actually preached to thousands, healed the sick, expelled demons and rose from the dead, historians throughout the Roman Empire would surely have known of him, but they don’t.

Despite the absence of evidence in the historical record I believe that Jesus probably did exist and some of the facts in the Gospels are loosely based on his life. I believe this for a number of reasons. We do have non-Biblical evidence for the existence of John the Baptist, and for James, the brother of Jesus. John and James were leaders of a sect of Jews, and there was another historical character, Jesus, who was leader of this same sect for a short time between these two. Members of this sect, including descendants of Jesus’ family, believed in the existence of Jesus for centuries after his death. There were also numerous second century stories about Jesus, some of which still exist, which never made it into the Bible. Paul, who was a contemporary of Jesus, claims there was once a human Jesus, and although Paul never met Jesus, he did meet members of his family and some of his original disciples.

The real Jesus just wasn’t as remarkable as the Gospels would have us believe. His genuine historical record probably documented his relative mediocrity so was destroyed by evangelical Christians in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th centuries. "

I will give you my 2c worth on religious/political terrorism if u r interested, but I don't want to make this too long
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18-06-2011, 11:31 PM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
Mark Fulton,
You conclusions still mystify me. He is my understanding of the logic.
There were lots of angry gallieans fighting the Romans in the early 1st century.
One particular galliean is recorded as having talked about swords a couple times.
Therefore he was fighting against Rome.
Doesn't work. Smile

He was part of my dream, of course--but then I was part of his dream, too!
--Alice
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