Jesus was a terrorist!
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02-12-2016, 04:00 PM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
Hi Mark.
Me? I am okay. A little confused due to medication withdrawal.

I know all that stuff written above.

I will ask a better and more precise question when my brain is able to handle it.

Cheers mate. Smile

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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02-12-2016, 04:14 PM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
(02-12-2016 04:00 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Hi Mark.
Me? I am okay. A little confused due to medication withdrawal.

I know all that stuff written above.

I will ask a better and more precise question when my brain is able to handle it.

Cheers mate. Smile

I hope you're ok
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02-12-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
(01-12-2016 01:37 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  This discussion reminds me of the English phenomenon of transpotting. If you have ever been to a train station in England your will see men standing on the platforms with notebooks and binoculars, looking at trains. They collect the numbers on train engines and carriages. They collect these numbers and then compare notes with other trainspotters. It is truly bizarre, and completely pointless.

So what if one thinks Jesus was a real person by that name or some similar name who was circulating around Judea. What difference does it make to anything? It's like talking about whether Harry Potter's persona was based on some kid J K Rowling knew or wether there was some eccentric millionaire called Bruce Wayne. Suppose someone came across a parchment in a cave in Egypt which identified Jesus as based on Eleazar or Appolonius or an amalgam of the two. It changes nothing. Those who believe will still believe, come what may. For those who don't, it's a complete irrelevance. It's not even interesting. The sheer boredom of the topic is exacerbated by the fact that no one ever will find such proof, we don't even know who Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were or what parts of the gospels are made up, embellished or true. It's pointless.

What is relevant is that there is an ideological world war going on right now in which we in the West are waking up to the fact that a purportedly Abrahamic seventh century religion is tearing at the fabric of Western civilisation and half of us are wanting to accept it as a religion with all the rights that entitles it to while the other half think it is a death cult. In the meantime, whatever good a religion like Christianity might offer in terms of its moral and political message is lost in a fog of pseudo-intellectual ramblings about who Jesus and Paul were and how their "Jewish" upbringing influenced their teaching etc etc. And, what's worse, is that the Muslim world has no idea about the teachings of Christianity and how antithetical they are to what fundamentalist, and even moderate, Muslims believe, assuming one can figure out what the moral and philosophical basis of Islam is, other than throwing everyone into the "crusher". And he is a Prophet in these gullibles religion! They know nothing of him because virtually no ordinary Muslim has read the Koran, let alone the NT. Most Muslims in the Middle East (and I live here) are more interested in their cars and who they are going to vote for on Arabs Got Talent. We tremble while these people sleep walk around without a clue about anything and with less understanding of the world the an eight year old in the West.


"So what if one thinks Jesus was a real person by that name or some similar name who was circulating around Judea. What difference does it make to anything?"

Unfortunately we all have to live in a world populated by Christians. They believe Jeebus was real. That's not good for them or the world. Some of them might be interested in the real history, which is why I think the history is important.
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03-12-2016, 11:18 AM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2016 11:26 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
But Mark, if one is interested in history, what excuse is there for not reading the works of Atwill, Ellis and David Domini who all say the timing of the Jesus story is incorrect? The lifeline Izates is so similar too that of Jesus that it is highly improbable that they are not the same person.

At some point, surely, you must get to the point that you have to accept that the reference to Pontius Pilate is as much a fiction as the account of Jesus walking on water.

I have posted a lot about the references to Horus myths in the NT. Horus walked on water, was the son of God, was a healer, raised Osirus (Lazarus) is reborn at Christmas, as per mythologists like Murdoch/Acharya S. I think there is a middle ground in that these are in the Jesus story as "signs"to the people of Syria to whom the NT is addressed, not because the NT is a mythological story. If they are just signs then it makes no sense to say that Jesus was not a real person but if you ignore this all as a way of drawing Syrian Horus worshippers or Chaldeans, or Serapis worshippers into this new religion, then you are left with two issues which you can look at afresh. First, what is the basis of the new religion. I think it is Epicureanism. Second, was there a character, an Aramaic speaking, Assyrian born putative King who was born and died before the first mention of the Gospel of Matthew in 78 AD.

Scour the Jewish Encyclopedia for references to Izates and you will see a character who has a similar lifeline and accomplishments, without reading Ellis, if you consider that to be too heretical. Lol

You get some similarities. He is from a Jewish royal line. He was a Rabbi in Jerusalem. He engaged in a famine relief. He converted to a new form of Judaism. He was involved in the Jewish Revolt. He educated children from age 6. He disappears from Judea for most of his youth, to Charax Spasinu, where he was converted by Eleazar. He returns to Jerusalem and preaches his new beliefs. He falls out of favour and is thrown over the city walls.

I have come to the conclusion that this is the historical basis for the character so, even if I am wrong, intellectually I have a resolution and, guess what? It is pointless and meaningless in the grand scheme of things. At least, however, I am not spinning my wheels, going round in circles trying to find someone for whom their is absolutely no evidence e, i.e.., a Jesus in 30 AD. I realize that arriving at a plausible and satisfying result for me only does one thing, it allows me to move on but I have to accept that I have only reduced the number of people having the problems you refer to by 1, me. And, with any religious debate it comes with all the opposition of dogmatists from both the religious and atheistic quarters as if I had accepted that Jesus was from outer space.

My big issue in life now is that I am living in a Muslim country surrounded by warring religious communities and subject to laws which require me to work only with a Muslim partner and in a society which seems to have no moral compass, has .ca saga ions, sex slavery, brothels drug and alcohol problems and where o one ever discusses relic I on or morals, at all, ever, not even Islam and virtually no one goes to a Mosque, and all other forms of moral, or religious discourse, are non-existent, and they celebrate Christmas!!!

Life is like that so while I appreciate your sentiment, all I would say is that my answer is to look at all angles of this issue exhaustively, leave no stone unturned even if, like me ,you end up being flamed around a chat forum by a Zealot and discover that the core of both Judaism and Christianity is an atheistic materialistic Greek philosophy that no one has heard of.
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03-12-2016, 11:37 AM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
Please excuse the predictive text typos above as I seem to have lost my edit button. Relic I on. Religion
.ca saga ions. Casinos

Lol
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03-12-2016, 02:32 PM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
(03-12-2016 11:18 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  But Mark, if one is interested in history, what excuse is there for not reading the works of Atwill, Ellis and David Domini who all say the timing of the Jesus story is incorrect? The lifeline Izates is so similar too that of Jesus that it is highly improbable that they are not the same person.

At some point, surely, you must get to the point that you have to accept that the reference to Pontius Pilate is as much a fiction as the account of Jesus walking on water.

I have posted a lot about the references to Horus myths in the NT. Horus walked on water, was the son of God, was a healer, raised Osirus (Lazarus) is reborn at Christmas, as per mythologists like Murdoch/Acharya S. I think there is a middle ground in that these are in the Jesus story as "signs"to the people of Syria to whom the NT is addressed, not because the NT is a mythological story. If they are just signs then it makes no sense to say that Jesus was not a real person but if you ignore this all as a way of drawing Syrian Horus worshippers or Chaldeans, or Serapis worshippers into this new religion, then you are left with two issues which you can look at afresh. First, what is the basis of the new religion. I think it is Epicureanism. Second, was there a character, an Aramaic speaking, Assyrian born putative King who was born and died before the first mention of the Gospel of Matthew in 78 AD.

Scour the Jewish Encyclopedia for references to Izates and you will see a character who has a similar lifeline and accomplishments, without reading Ellis, if you consider that to be too heretical. Lol

You get some similarities. He is from a Jewish royal line. He was a Rabbi in Jerusalem. He engaged in a famine relief. He converted to a new form of Judaism. He was involved in the Jewish Revolt. He educated children from age 6. He disappears from Judea for most of his youth, to Charax Spasinu, where he was converted by Eleazar. He returns to Jerusalem and preaches his new beliefs. He falls out of favour and is thrown over the city walls.

I have come to the conclusion that this is the historical basis for the character so, even if I am wrong, intellectually I have a resolution and, guess what? It is pointless and meaningless in the grand scheme of things. At least, however, I am not spinning my wheels, going round in circles trying to find someone for whom their is absolutely no evidence e, i.e.., a Jesus in 30 AD. I realize that arriving at a plausible and satisfying result for me only does one thing, it allows me to move on but I have to accept that I have only reduced the number of people having the problems you refer to by 1, me. And, with any religious debate it comes with all the opposition of dogmatists from both the religious and atheistic quarters as if I had accepted that Jesus was from outer space.

My big issue in life now is that I am living in a Muslim country surrounded by warring religious communities and subject to laws which require me to work only with a Muslim partner and in a society which seems to have no moral compass, has .ca saga ions, sex slavery, brothels drug and alcohol problems and where o one ever discusses relic I on or morals, at all, ever, not even Islam and virtually no one goes to a Mosque, and all other forms of moral, or religious discourse, are non-existent, and they celebrate Christmas!!!

Life is like that so while I appreciate your sentiment, all I would say is that my answer is to look at all angles of this issue exhaustively, leave no stone unturned even if, like me ,you end up being flamed around a chat forum by a Zealot and discover that the core of both Judaism and Christianity is an atheistic materialistic Greek philosophy that no one has heard of.

DB, you write

Atwill's theory is that the "real" Jesus character is based on Rabbi Eleazar who converted Queen Helena to his version of Judaism.

and then

The lifeline Izates is so similar too that of Jesus that it is highly improbable that they are not the same person.

So who is your Jeebus, Eleazar or Izates?
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03-12-2016, 02:37 PM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
(03-12-2016 11:18 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  discover that the core of both Judaism and Christianity is an atheistic materialistic Greek philosophy that no one has heard of.

Had you just written the above, I could have avoided your stupid post.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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04-12-2016, 01:20 AM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
(03-12-2016 02:32 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(03-12-2016 11:18 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  But Mark, if one is interested in history, what excuse is there for not reading the works of Atwill, Ellis and David Domini who all say the timing of the Jesus story is incorrect? The lifeline Izates is so similar too that of Jesus that it is highly improbable that they are not the same person.

At some point, surely, you must get to the point that you have to accept that the reference to Pontius Pilate is as much a fiction as the account of Jesus walking on water.

I have posted a lot about the references to Horus myths in the NT. Horus walked on water, was the son of God, was a healer, raised Osirus (Lazarus) is reborn at Christmas, as per mythologists like Murdoch/Acharya S. I think there is a middle ground in that these are in the Jesus story as "signs"to the people of Syria to whom the NT is addressed, not because the NT is a mythological story. If they are just signs then it makes no sense to say that Jesus was not a real person but if you ignore this all as a way of drawing Syrian Horus worshippers or Chaldeans, or Serapis worshippers into this new religion, then you are left with two issues which you can look at afresh. First, what is the basis of the new religion. I think it is Epicureanism. Second, was there a character, an Aramaic speaking, Assyrian born putative King who was born and died before the first mention of the Gospel of Matthew in 78 AD.

Scour the Jewish Encyclopedia for references to Izates and you will see a character who has a similar lifeline and accomplishments, without reading Ellis, if you consider that to be too heretical. Lol

You get some similarities. He is from a Jewish royal line. He was a Rabbi in Jerusalem. He engaged in a famine relief. He converted to a new form of Judaism. He was involved in the Jewish Revolt. He educated children from age 6. He disappears from Judea for most of his youth, to Charax Spasinu, where he was converted by Eleazar. He returns to Jerusalem and preaches his new beliefs. He falls out of favour and is thrown over the city walls.

I have come to the conclusion that this is the historical basis for the character so, even if I am wrong, intellectually I have a resolution and, guess what? It is pointless and meaningless in the grand scheme of things. At least, however, I am not spinning my wheels, going round in circles trying to find someone for whom their is absolutely no evidence e, i.e.., a Jesus in 30 AD. I realize that arriving at a plausible and satisfying result for me only does one thing, it allows me to move on but I have to accept that I have only reduced the number of people having the problems you refer to by 1, me. And, with any religious debate it comes with all the opposition of dogmatists from both the religious and atheistic quarters as if I had accepted that Jesus was from outer space.

My big issue in life now is that I am living in a Muslim country surrounded by warring religious communities and subject to laws which require me to work only with a Muslim partner and in a society which seems to have no moral compass, has .ca saga ions, sex slavery, brothels drug and alcohol problems and where o one ever discusses relic I on or morals, at all, ever, not even Islam and virtually no one goes to a Mosque, and all other forms of moral, or religious discourse, are non-existent, and they celebrate Christmas!!!

Life is like that so while I appreciate your sentiment, all I would say is that my answer is to look at all angles of this issue exhaustively, leave no stone unturned even if, like me ,you end up being flamed around a chat forum by a Zealot and discover that the core of both Judaism and Christianity is an atheistic materialistic Greek philosophy that no one has heard of.

DB, you write

Atwill's theory is that the "real" Jesus character is based on Rabbi Eleazar who converted Queen Helena to his version of Judaism.

and then

The lifeline Izates is so similar too that of Jesus that it is highly improbable that they are not the same person.

So who is your Jeebus, Eleazar or Izates?

Mark, Atwill's Jesus, ie., preacher, is Eleazar and his Jeebus, bible character is Titus. Ellis's Jesus is Izates I and his Thomas of Thomas Christianity is the twin brother Izates II.

For my part, the biblical character is an amalgam of Iz I and II but Iz II ends up on the cross while his brother is thrown off a cliff and Iz II asks why his lord has forsaken him.

I can see the point Atwill makes about Titus since Atwill is sucking up to the Flavians by writings ng it and wants to portray Titus as the Messiah and here he has switched the roles of Titus and Jesus around with Titus/Jesus pursuing Iaztes/Jesus around Judea.



It is all conjecture and none of it matters if it is a vehicle to promulgate an Epicurean ethos and subdue a hostile Assyrian popula in the Near East so I just look at it as a set of interesting hypotheses which, for me, allow me to put tbe whole issue to bed and. ot mess up my mind puzzling over it endlessly.
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07-12-2016, 11:01 PM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
Well jesus was peaceful but he was saying a sword to divide becuase if the person is causing problems you have to seperate.
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07-12-2016, 11:16 PM
RE: Jesus was a terrorist!
(17-06-2011 05:16 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I am sure a careful reading of the gospels reveals that Jesus was a terrorist.

A terrorist is someone who is willing to use violence to achieve political aims.

There is no doubt that in the decades before, during and after Jesus’ time many of the Palestinian Jews, and particularly the poor peasant Jews of Galilee, felt degraded and oppressed by the Romans who had killed or sold into slavery many of their relatives. Many Jewish Galilean peasants were even angry with their more urban fellow Jews who had partially assimilated into the Graeco-Roman culture.
A young pure-blooded Jew like Jesus would have hated the Romans with a passion. He would have regarded Romans as an inferior class of people, not God’s chosen, illegitimate impostors who ruled only by virtue of the fact they had a very powerful and brutal army. We should appreciate that Jesus’ audience were poor, oppressed peasants who suffered under the burdens of taxation, landlessness, unemployment and perceived religious discrimination.

If something lives in the sea, looks like a fish, swims like a fish and gets caught on a hook, that something is a fish. Jesus lived in a time and place that was a hotbed of political unrest, he had the right pedigree to be a zealot, he talked, lived and died like a zealot, so therefore he was a zealot. He was the leader of a group of tough talking Galilean militants, men who were angry that Romans were in charge of God’s holy land. He wanted to free his people from Roman rule and create a glorious Israel. The evidence for this is in the Bible.

If I am right, this is a seriously powerful argument that can be used to help educate Christians about their god/man hero.

If there is enough interest in this thread I will discuss the evidence ( there is too much to release all at once). I will be seriously interested in everyone's thought about this.

Were there any mentions of Jesus in any historical sources?
I've always brushed Jesus off as some minor cult leader, who was annoying enough to be "dealt with" by the local authorities.
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