Jesuss
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04-09-2017, 11:53 PM
RE: Jesuss
(04-09-2017 06:46 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 06:35 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Not at all! That kinda ties into the point that they were so stupid they didn't bother to bring food so god had to make food rain from the sky. Don't think that would have worked out so well for them if god decided they needed spears lol

> I can already tell you what any Catholic nun at the school I attended as a youth would have replied. "Where is your faith, young man?" Facepalm

Being fondled by a priest no doubt. Drinking Beverage

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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05-09-2017, 12:14 AM
RE: Jesuss
(04-09-2017 06:48 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 06:22 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Ok where to start:

1.) No he did not, the Jews were never enslaved in Egypt a view held by every single competent historian and archeologist.

2.) If it was true then it's the story of a bunch of people putting their faith in god and it takes him 40 YEARS to lead them across a strip of desert that takes about 6 DAYS to cross. That god...is an idiot.

3.) Dressed for battle how? Did the Egyptians arm and armour them? Where did they gear the gear to be "dressed for battle"? They didn't even have the brains to bring food yet they had Armour and weapons?

4.) Why were they dressed for battle in a Barron wasteland? They Egyptian army just got wiped the fuck out. Who are they expecting to have to fight in a desert?

5.) Not that it would matter anyway. You know how many soldiers the Israelis would have had? Zero. How many people that have any experience in warfare? Zero. How many have any idea about unit formations, tactics, or overall strategy? Zero. Probably none of them have ever held a sword or a spear in their life, they have no tools to repair or maintain their weapons and armour or to forge new ones. No mounted cav, no weapon specialists, no one to train anyone on the usage of the weapons.

Had they actually been in a desert with the conditions and background the Bible describes they would have all died and even if they hadn't they would have left that desert with a generation of fighters with no training, no experience, badly damaged weapons if they had any weapons. They couldn't even have made bows or arrows in the desert. They would have been cut down by any half competent force a 10th of their number, 20th if that army was armed with half decent archers.

Shitty fiction is shitty fiction.

The did not wander for 40 years. Most of that time, about 36 years, they were supposedly camped out at Kadesh-Barnea. According to Numbers, when they left Egypt, there were 600,000 men between ages of 20 and 45 who could wield the sword.
This would be the largest army in the Near East at that time, not equalled until the Persians invaded Greece many centuries later. Exodus claims the Israelites out numbered the Egyptians 2 to 1. This whole tall tale is a bunch of outrageous malarkey.
Oh it absolutely is a bunch of nonsense. Still though a lot of the questions remain and he should really ask them of himself and see if he can square them.

Why camp in a desert with no resources for 36 years when fertile land is at most 6 days away?

Sure you got 600,000 men who could wield a sword...if they had any. Even if you had a few people that knew how to make swords you don't have the mean, materials or abilities to gather what little resources there are in the environment. No means to smelt the ore, no tools to work it, at best you are coming out of that desert with sharpened rocks. A bunch of people armed with spears don't make an army. that mob, no matter how big it is, breaks and runs shortly after it faces a trained and disciplined force or it gets hit up it's ass with anything approaching shock cav. Possibly with chariots made of iron.

Who trains the silly buggers in war anyway? The servile war of Spartacus did as well as it did because they had battle hardened warriors with years of experience and a mind for battlefield tactics, and in the end they all ended up defeated and crucified. They don't have anyone of that. They are coming outta a barren wasteland with no possible chance for reinforcement, no defensible structures to fall back on, no supply lines, no allies, no ability to manufacture arms or armour and their army consists of untrained and untested people that have never even seen a battle let alone took part in one. They have no ranged support, no cav, so idea how to make siege engines or even how to go about properly besieging a walled city.

They get slaughtered to the man by any force active at that time even if they vastly vastly outnumber them. I honestly think it's a story as equally absurd as the idea of the whole world flooding. Even the idea that, after being basically responsible for the murder of every single first born male in Egypt (at the least 10's of thousands of people), that they would not not just slaughter the lot of these unarmed, undisciplined, and untrained slaves on the spot is to me ridiculous. Nations don't act this way.

Idiotic story.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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05-09-2017, 06:06 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 06:09 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: Jesuss
Inevitably when people write their own stories they cast themselves as victims and heros.
The cast of villains is ever shifting to fit the circumstances.
Any truth goes out the window in service of the story.
Nothing changes.
It's a defect in the human condition IMO
Religion is rife with the "drama triangle" just like most stories.

http://www.joyofconflict.com/editor_arti...inHero.htm

Rats on a wheel.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fix...p-triangle

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05-09-2017, 06:11 AM
RE: Jesuss
(05-09-2017 06:06 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Inevitably when people write their own stories they cast themselves as victims and heros.
The cast of villains is ever shifting to fit the circumstances.
Any truth goes out the window in service of the story.
Nothing changes.
It's a defect in the human condition IMO

http://www.joyofconflict.com/editor_arti...inHero.htm

Yes, but plenty of people who won't write their stories know perfectly well they behaved just as badly as the other people around them.

This is especially true if you've lived long enough to recognize your many mistakes.

Sad
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05-09-2017, 06:21 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 06:39 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: Jesuss
Yes but the point is that the stories aren't stories they are culture.
Take for instance the famous "dream of the rood" which is the telling of the crucifixion story from the point of view of the cross.
It was adopted by a number of cultures and the way it changed in each context is instructive.

For instance

Norse Version of passage (heroic like most Norse stories)
Quote: It seemed to me I saw a wondrous tree
soaring into the air, surrounded by light,
the brightest of crosses; that emblem was entirely
cased in gold; beautiful jewels
were strewn around its foot, just as five
studded the cross-beam. . . .
That was no cross of a criminal, but holy spirits and men on earth
watched over it there--the whole glorious universe.
Original Version (victim)
Quote:The finest of trees began to speak:
"I remember the morning a long time ago
that I was felled at the edge of the forest
and severed from my roots. Strong enemies seized me,
bade me hold up their felons on high,
made me a spectacle."
Or
Norse version (Jesus is depicted as a great courageous hero)
Quote:"I saw the Lord of Mankind
hasten with such courage to climb upon me.
I dared not bow or break there
against my Lord's wish, when I saw the surface
of the earth tremble. I could have felled
all my foes, yet I stood firm.
Then the young warrior stripped himself, firm and unflinching."
Original version (Jesus as victim)
Quote:"They drove dark nails into me; dire wounds are there to see,
the gaping gashes of malice; I dared not injure them.
They insulted us both together; I was drenched in the blood
that streamed from the Man's side after He set His spirit free."

There is no point in looking for truth in any of these stories.
They serve the perspective of the story teller only.
Slaves play the victim.
Conquerors play the hero.
Any sense of truth is an illusion.
Much of the Bible is nothing more than a greatest hits collection of this sort of clap trap.
This is why debating religion is like the debates you had with your friends as a kid about who would win in a fight, Batman or Spiderman

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05-09-2017, 10:09 AM
RE: Jesuss
(04-09-2017 09:40 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 09:32 AM)keepy Wrote:  the lord did not lead israel by the shorter way but through the desert, around to the promised land. god said, they have to fight? so they might change their minds and go back to egypt. the israelites were dressed for battle.
Ok re: the above -

The Israelites wondered the desert....for 40 years...dressed for battle ?! Blink Yeah, no I think. I'm not entirly sure, but I don't think it'd take 40 years, on foot, to walk around that area. Plus God is a bit of a douchebag for making them do that.

Angel: "God, your almighty-ness...
God: YES
Angel: The Israelite's are praying to know which way to go. There are two options: 1) down a straight road that takes like a month tops or 2) a 40+ year walk through a bone dry desert. I'll tell them it'll be Number 1 obviously then?
God: NO
Angel: What?! why, going the other way is just absurd, there is no water, no food...
God: BE QUIET YOU. WHO IS THE ALMIGHTY HERE, YOU OR ME? THEY CAN WANDER THE DESERT, WHERE I WILL GIVE THEM THE GIANT TABLETS OF STONE...
Angel: Bloody hell, just give them a scroll...
God: I'LL DO WHATEVER I LIKE, I'M GOD....NOW GO GET ME A COFFEE

And also. God said "they have to fight?", as in a response to somebody else talking? Who was he talking too, his wife?

Miriam and the women sang after god has defeated pharaoh and his army into the red sea, your right hand o lord shatters the enemy. praise the lord for his awesome victory.
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05-09-2017, 10:15 AM
RE: Jesuss
(04-09-2017 05:09 PM)Astreja Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 07:43 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Keepy, answer the following question as if your eternal salvation depended on it -- A simple and truthful yes or no, please.

Are you yourself, or do you know, the poster known as "socialistview"?

(04-09-2017 09:04 AM)keepy Wrote:  someone asked, what is eternal life, and jesus answered, the knowledge of my father and me. i am always trying to learn more about jesus, and you?

As far as I am concerned, and as far as I have been able to ascertain through analysis of the available materials, Jesus is either a fictional character or a mythologized version of a real person who has been dead for about 2000 years.

I do not believe in eternal life, and more importantly, I do not want eternal life.

(Oh, and you failed to answer my question regarding your relationship, if any, to socialistview. No eternal life for you! Big Grin)

the hope of man ot rise from the dead, jesus rose up by the power of god, obey him and you will also rise. what is your hope?
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05-09-2017, 10:27 AM
RE: Jesuss
(04-09-2017 07:27 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 09:13 AM)keepy Wrote:  do not break any of the bones. who wants to celebrate Passover must have all the males of his household circumcised, and join in the festival.

And the light shone upon the faces of the believers. They cried, "Show us the truth and the way," and their voices did echo well into night. A great voice called forth from the skies saying, "I shall not, for you do not seek pure truth." So wandered they did until they found the dark waters and fell into them.

faithful to his promise, the lord led his people by his strength to this sacred land. you bring them in and plant them on your mountain, the sanctuary you have chosen to dwell in, where you will reign.
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05-09-2017, 10:36 AM
RE: Jesuss
(05-09-2017 06:21 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Yes but the point is that the stories aren't stories they are culture.
Take for instance the famous "dream of the rood" which is the telling of the crucifixion story from the point of view of the cross.
It was adopted by a number of cultures and the way it changed in each context is instructive.

For instance

Norse Version of passage (heroic like most Norse stories)
Quote: It seemed to me I saw a wondrous tree
soaring into the air, surrounded by light,
the brightest of crosses; that emblem was entirely
cased in gold; beautiful jewels
were strewn around its foot, just as five
studded the cross-beam. . . .
That was no cross of a criminal, but holy spirits and men on earth
watched over it there--the whole glorious universe.
Original Version (victim)
Quote:The finest of trees began to speak:
"I remember the morning a long time ago
that I was felled at the edge of the forest
and severed from my roots. Strong enemies seized me,
bade me hold up their felons on high,
made me a spectacle."
Or
Norse version (Jesus is depicted as a great courageous hero)
Quote:"I saw the Lord of Mankind
hasten with such courage to climb upon me.
I dared not bow or break there
against my Lord's wish, when I saw the surface
of the earth tremble. I could have felled
all my foes, yet I stood firm.
Then the young warrior stripped himself, firm and unflinching."
Original version (Jesus as victim)
Quote:"They drove dark nails into me; dire wounds are there to see,
the gaping gashes of malice; I dared not injure them.
They insulted us both together; I was drenched in the blood
that streamed from the Man's side after He set His spirit free."

There is no point in looking for truth in any of these stories.
They serve the perspective of the story teller only.
Slaves play the victim.
Conquerors play the hero.
Any sense of truth is an illusion.
Much of the Bible is nothing more than a greatest hits collection of this sort of clap trap.
This is why debating religion is like the debates you had with your friends as a kid about who would win in a fight, Batman or Spiderman

the lord planned all these to gain great glory in order to save the son of man after the fall in the garden of Eden.
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05-09-2017, 10:55 AM
RE: Jesuss
(05-09-2017 10:27 AM)keepy Wrote:  faithful to his promise, the lord led his people by his strength to this sacred land. you bring them in and plant them on your mountain, the sanctuary you have chosen to dwell in, where you will reign.

And lo I say unto thee this day, he spake to me in a booming voice. He smiled and laughed and spake the words I shall henceforth share: "I am the Bozo, the Clarabelle, the Ronald of McDonald." He shall honketh thy nose and maketh a dog from thy balloons.
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