"Jewish state"..........
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10-08-2014, 07:02 AM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2014 07:27 AM by Brian37.)
"Jewish state"..........
When I hear Israeli supporters or Israelis use this term it gives me a lip twitch. Are they westernized? Yes. Do they have the good intent of valuing western style government? Again yes.

But I do not buy it one bit when they claim it has nothing to do with religion. It is the same social pecking order denial that you get from Christians in the United States who will call a non Christian equal, but still use the phrase "Christian nation".

Israel has a religious icon on it's flag, it is not a neutral flag, it does not represent the entire population of Israel including Arab and Muslim Israelis anymore than having a cross on the American flag would be neutral.

Most recently Netenyahu said that the "Jewish state" would be based on the Talmud. And again, how would that make anymore sense when Christians in America try to claim that America's laws are ripped out of the bible?

Now of course Israel westernized, and yes far too much of the Middle East is still behind the west in valuing pluralism to the same degree. But no Israel, saying you are not like them because your social pecking order is not fascist, is not equality, it is simply a watered down social pecking order.

The founders of the United States promised to protect freedom of religion, but the glaring lack of the word Christian, and Jesus, and bible, in the Constitution said a lot about what they did not want to be. Theocracy lite is still a theocracy. As soon as you put specific language into law favoring one group over another, you are going to cause divisions.

The only fair thing with government law is to not play favorites and only agree to protect everyone. Israels "Jewish state" claims is problematic for the same reason you have liberal Christians and conservative Christians who view "Christian nation" differently.

America is not a "Christian state", it is nation based on religious freedom, which is why you see "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion or the free exorcise thereof" and in our oath of office "No religious test".

I do not say this to Jews or supporters of Israel to say "you have to leave", but merely as advice knowing how non Christians in America still are viewed, despite our constitution, as guests at best, and or feared as the "other" because of the attitude of "I am more special than you are, and you are equal as long as you accept that".

When you think about how long it took for a Catholic to get elected President, and even longer fore Jews and Muslims to serve in our congress, I am giving you advice as to what really constitutes a secular state. There is no way to view "Jewish state" as not setting up a social pecking order. Equality is not set up that way.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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11-08-2014, 02:08 PM
RE: "Jewish state"..........
Judaism is not only a religion, but also a culture and an ethnic group. It's messy, but it helps to keep in mind that the kind of separation bwteween nationality and religion that we have in the modern West is a historical anomaly and largely rejected outside of the Western world. There are many Jewish atheists in Israel, and in the US as well.

The star of David that you find on the Israeli flag is a historical symbol of the Jewish people and not necessarily a marker of religion (though it can be). The founders of Israel were largely secular, intending to create a Jewish nation-state (like say Ireland is an Irish nation-state), not a Jewish religious state.

My country (Sweden) has a cross on its flag. Would you prefer it was changed? I don't, it's simply our history and anyone who is offended by it is retarded. Likewise I don't object to Muslim countries (or historically Muslim countries, once they become secularized) having crescents on their flags. It's their history. Frankly the flags are the least problematic issue with many of these countries.

"Examine the religious principles, which have, in fact, prevailed in the world. You will scarcely be persuaded, that they are any thing but sick men's dreams." - David Hume
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11-08-2014, 02:31 PM
RE: "Jewish state"..........
Israel has lots of ethnic and religious issues. They tend to overlap in most cases. The tension between the Jews and Arabs goes back to before the League of Nations took away Palestine and gave it to the Jews to form Israel. It is a giant Hatfield and McCoy type mess.

Theocracy is bad. Sooner or later you get the zealots running the show and everyone suffers. Iran and Iraq are good examples. Before the US and the USSR got to excessive meddling in the region they were fairly modern, secular countries. The modern, secular leaders we ousted for zealots to fight for a side then things went down hill. IIRC Afghanistan was similar with the US helping the Talban obtain power over a moderate secular government to fight the soviets.
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11-08-2014, 03:16 PM (This post was last modified: 11-08-2014 09:20 PM by Wicked Clown.)
RE: "Jewish state"..........
I think we should have given New York up to be a Jewish state. That wouldn't have caused all the wars and bloodshed. Of all the places in the world to give the Jews their state, why put them in a place that is going to cause war with every neighboring country and then some Facepalm
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11-08-2014, 05:01 PM
RE: "Jewish state"..........
(11-08-2014 03:16 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  I think we should have given New York up to be a Jewish state. That wouldn't have caused all the wars and bloodshed. Of all the places in the world to give the Jews their state, why put them in a place that is going to cause war with every neighbouring country and then some :doh:

It's not quite so simple. They weren't just plopped into the region by the UN.

Just like everything else in history and international politics, it's not remotely as simple as your solution would necessitate it to have been.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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11-08-2014, 05:59 PM
RE: "Jewish state"..........
(11-08-2014 05:01 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(11-08-2014 03:16 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  I think we should have given New York up to be a Jewish state. That wouldn't have caused all the wars and bloodshed. Of all the places in the world to give the Jews their state, why put them in a place that is going to cause war with every neighbouring country and then some :doh:

It's not quite so simple. They weren't just plopped into the region by the UN.

Just like everything else in history and international politics, it's not remotely as simple as your solution would necessitate it to have been.

You are correct. It was the League of Nations.
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11-08-2014, 06:37 PM
RE: "Jewish state"..........
(11-08-2014 05:59 PM)wazzel Wrote:  
(11-08-2014 05:01 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  It's not quite so simple. They weren't just plopped into the region by the UN.

Just like everything else in history and international politics, it's not remotely as simple as your solution would necessitate it to have been.

You are correct. It was the League of Nations.

I don't recall reading that they ultimately had all that much to do with it. They put the British in control of Mandatory Palestine, but outside of that, I can't remember much of their involvement, 'specially since it dissolved a small time before everything came to a head in Palestine.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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11-08-2014, 06:40 PM
RE: "Jewish state"..........
(11-08-2014 06:37 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(11-08-2014 05:59 PM)wazzel Wrote:  You are correct. It was the League of Nations.

I don't recall reading that they ultimately had all that much to do with it. They put the British in control of Mandatory Palestine, but outside of that, I can't remember much of their involvement, 'specially since it dissolved a small time before everything came to a head in Palestine.

The League set up the rest of the Middle East by Mandates (Enacted through the British) which goes to show if you think a UN mandate establishing Israel is not legitimate what does that say about the rest of those countries?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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11-08-2014, 07:32 PM
RE: "Jewish state"..........
(11-08-2014 06:37 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(11-08-2014 05:59 PM)wazzel Wrote:  You are correct. It was the League of Nations.

I don't recall reading that they ultimately had all that much to do with it. They put the British in control of Mandatory Palestine, but outside of that, I can't remember much of their involvement, 'specially since it dissolved a small time before everything came to a head in Palestine.

Sorry my mistake. It was UN resolution 181 that partitioned up Palistine. There was some League of Nations involvement prior to that. It is messy how ever the details flaked out.
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11-08-2014, 08:48 PM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2014 05:59 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: "Jewish state"..........
(11-08-2014 06:40 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The League set up the rest of the Middle East by Mandates (Enacted through the British) which goes to show if you think a UN mandate establishing Israel is not legitimate what does that say about the rest of those countries?

They're all equally artificial. That's what it says. And it's the truth.

I recently watched Simon Shama (a British Jewish historian) do a special on PBS. He's under the impression "they're special", in some way. He buys into that totally. It was revolting someone so intelligent was so ignorant of his ancient history while being so conversant with his recent/modern history.

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Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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