Jews and Discrimination.
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21-09-2013, 06:14 AM
Re: RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 04:53 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  
(20-09-2013 02:55 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Judaism is a religion, not a race, at least as far as I know. Discriminating against people based on anything other than merit isn't fair, don't get me wrong, but "Jew" isn't a race of people. I can understand that people can be culturally Jewish, just as one could be culturally Christian or Muslim without sharing the beliefs of those religions. In fact, I would argue that people are most often discriminated against based culture rather than skin color, nationality, or whatever. Don't misunderstand me, people still are discriminated against based on those things, but I think more commonly it is culture.

Jews, or Jewish descendants play an odd role compared to others. If I were bigoted against someone who came from a Jewish family, but weren't specifically believers I would be called antisemitic, or racist by many people. Many non-believing cultural people of Jewish decent still claim they are Jewish. I can't imagine, were the proverbial shoe on the other foot I would ever call the person an anti-christ, nor would I ever apply the label "Christian" to myself. So...what's the deal? Someone set me straight please. I just don't get it. Huh

Why not say that there are no races, just one race, Homo Sapiens. Works for me.

Well some people have more neanderthal bloodlines. Does that distinguish race?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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21-09-2013, 06:34 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(20-09-2013 02:55 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Judaism is a religion, not a race, at least as far as I know.

Nuh-uh! They all got big noses. Tongue

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21-09-2013, 06:36 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
And they're all jewish.

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21-09-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
Thanks for the brilliant insight DLJ, you lazy bastard.

Dena, please explain to me why someone born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, but why someone born of a Christian mother isn't necessarily a Christian. What do you mean it doesn't matter what you believe?

If my wife and I convert to Judaism, though neither of us have any Jewish ancestry, and we raise a child that is an Atheist is that person Jewish? If 'no' then please explain how that person is different form you, if 'yes' explain how they are part of a 'nation' or 'tribe' that you referenced earlier.

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21-09-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 01:03 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Thanks for the brilliant insight DLJ, you lazy bastard.

Dena, please explain to me why someone born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, but why someone born of a Christian mother isn't necessarily a Christian. What do you mean it doesn't matter what you believe?

If my wife and I convert to Judaism, though neither of us have any Jewish ancestry, and we raise a child that is an Atheist is that person Jewish? If 'no' then please explain how that person is different form you, if 'yes' explain how they are part of a 'nation' or 'tribe' that you referenced earlier.

... because your premise was incorrect. It's a 'race' thing. Dena covered that.

Race, being merely a human-constructed model is whatever humans decide it to be.

Therefore race is inherited whereas religion or lack of, is a choice. In this case, Jewishnessosity, it's matrilineally.

Making me, like Hitchens and Fry, Jewish (or Jew-ish) "on the side that counts".

Got no choice.

But it's purely about definition. Once you've rejected the in-group/out-group notions of race and religion (and gender and aliveness) it makes no fucking difference to the mundane or the ethereal.

Was that lazyless enough for you? Already?

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21-09-2013, 02:02 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 01:39 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 01:03 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Thanks for the brilliant insight DLJ, you lazy bastard.

Dena, please explain to me why someone born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, but why someone born of a Christian mother isn't necessarily a Christian. What do you mean it doesn't matter what you believe?

If my wife and I convert to Judaism, though neither of us have any Jewish ancestry, and we raise a child that is an Atheist is that person Jewish? If 'no' then please explain how that person is different form you, if 'yes' explain how they are part of a 'nation' or 'tribe' that you referenced earlier.

... because your premise was incorrect. It's a 'race' thing. Dena covered that.

Race, being merely a human-constructed model is whatever humans decide it to be.

Therefore race is inherited whereas religion or lack of, is a choice. In this case, Jewishnessosity, it's matrilineally.

Making me, like Hitchens and Fry, Jewish (or Jew-ish) "on the side that counts".

Got no choice.

But it's purely about definition. Once you've rejected the in-group/out-group notions of race and religion (and gender and aliveness) it makes no fucking difference to the mundane or the ethereal.

Was that lazyless enough for you? Already?

It also has the effect of "Group Identity" which has been agreed upon by not only those in the group but those outside of it as well. Since Jews have traditionally set themselves apart (for multiple reasons) they tend to have more of a Jewish identity than a local identity. We can look at some of the latter nations for a similar thing, Italy for instance you are from your city first and Italian second. Even once in America for 5 generations people from Sicily are Sicilian-American not Italian-American. From a genetic standpoint Homosapians are Homosapians but most of us asign diferent group labels in addition to that.

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21-09-2013, 02:21 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
I find it odd that people who aren't Jewish in the religious sense still apply that racial definition of a Jew to themselves. If you don't believe in the religion, why define yourself as part of that group if the only definition that would make you part of it is the one that doesn't exist outside of the group? If you leave the group, their definitions are irrelevant.

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21-09-2013, 04:34 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 01:03 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Dena, please explain to me why someone born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, but why someone born of a Christian mother isn't necessarily a Christian.

I'm not sure how to explain it to you any more clear? Christianity is a religion. It's based on belief in Jesus as your savior. It's based on following Jesus as your guide and your god. You attain Christian status by adopting that belief system. Being born to a Christian mom doesn't make you a Christian. I had a friend the other day post a photo on facebook that said something like "going to church makes you a christian like sitting in a garage makes you a car". Nobody can argue the influence Christianity has had on the world and the US in particular, but as far I know, Christians have come to a pretty solid consensus that being born to a christian parent doesn't make one a Christian (though I think Catholics do believe that baptizing a child keeps them from going to hell).

Jews are a particular tribe of people who formed a few thousand years ago, possibly from a group of Canaanites. We have shared history, culture, literature and religion. Within that framework are more specific cultures like that of Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Ethiopian and Yemeni Jews who have spread to different parts of the world and developed their own foods and cultural norms.

Before modern times, "Jewish" was not considered your religion. The religion in the early days doesn't even look like it does today. The Israelites were clearly polytheists. Even when monotheism is described in the Hebrew Bible it's probably more so what was considered the ideal than what was actually practiced. The Jewish religion and shifted and changes over time. Even one's passport gave an indication of how Jews were perceived. It was who you were, your identity as a person.

In recent history, there have been Jews who tried to claim being Jewish is about religion but Judaism just doesn't seem to fit well into the mold of the western idea of religion. The Reform movement for example tried it and in the end, changed their mind and now again considers Jewishness to be about people-hood. I really don't see why you would be that interested in this topic but there is a book called How Judaism Became a Religion: An Introduction to Modern Jewish Thought that goes over the modern attempt to classify Judaism as a religion and the rejection of that notion of the part of some of the Jewish community. I personally haven't read it.

There are also numerous other books that deal with what it means to be a Jew today. Again, I doubt you are that interested but they are out there if you are curious.

You may even be able to draw some parallels from native populations in the US. They have shared history, culture, art and what not. The tribes also had religious rituals and beliefs but today if a Cherokee Nation member is a Christian, that doesn't mean they aren't Cherokee. They are a part of the group regardless.

(21-09-2013 01:03 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  What do you mean it doesn't matter what you believe?

I mean exactly what I said. Judaism is a religion of action, not a religion of belief like Christianity. If you take a look at the 613 mitzvot (Jewish laws) only about five or so of them are dependent on belief. The rest are behavior oriented. One could actually live a very Jewish life without believing in god at all.

(21-09-2013 01:03 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  If my wife and I convert to Judaism, though neither of us have any Jewish ancestry, and we raise a child that is an Atheist is that person Jewish?

If your wife converted before the child was born, then yes, that child is Jewish.
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21-09-2013, 04:37 PM (This post was last modified: 21-09-2013 04:40 PM by Dena.)
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 02:21 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  If you don't believe in the religion, why define yourself as part of that group if the only definition that would make you part of it is the one that doesn't exist outside of the group? If you leave the group, their definitions are irrelevant.

And this is why you do not understand, because you see "JEW" as a religion when that is not how we see or define ourselves.

I actually knew a guy who converted, twice, and then changed his mind. He sent his paperwork back to the Rabbis who had assisted him with his conversion and told them he no longer considered himself a Jew. No dice. They told him he was now and would forever be Jew whether he liked it or not. Didn't matter if he was religious, atheist, buddhist or crazy as a march hare. It's the same for those who were born Jews.
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21-09-2013, 04:43 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 01:39 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Making me, like Hitchens and Fry, Jewish (or Jew-ish) "on the side that counts".

I did not know Fry is Jewish.
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