Jews and Discrimination.
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21-09-2013, 09:03 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
Well, I understood DLJ, so cheers for that. Race. In sociological terms it is a meaningless term. It all relates to culture, and a race is whatever you want it to be. If you want 'Jew' to be a race, then it is. It is a bit confusing in this particular matter because it can mean either the race, or the followers of Judaism. You'll have to forgive my ignorance on Jewish culture. I know some history, stretching from early animism to the reliance of Jewish bankers during the middle-ages by European Christians, but knowing history and knowing culture are not the same. I really wish there were two terms to distinguish between the two 'Jews', but it is what it is.

Thanks to Dena. I think our brains work a bit differently, that is to say we have different worldviews. I think in a 100 shades of grey and you think in black and white terms (or so it seems to me). Nothing wrong with it , but I think that's why I had difficulty understanding you. Your responses were valued nonetheless, and I appreciate the effort. Thumbsup

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21-09-2013, 09:16 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 04:43 PM)Dena Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 01:39 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Making me, like Hitchens and Fry, Jewish (or Jew-ish) "on the side that counts".

I did not know Fry is Jewish.

Yup...




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21-09-2013, 09:38 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(20-09-2013 02:55 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Judaism is a religion, not a race, at least as far as I know. Discriminating against people based on anything other than merit isn't fair, don't get me wrong, but "Jew" isn't a race of people. I can understand that people can be culturally Jewish, just as one could be culturally Christian or Muslim without sharing the beliefs of those religions. In fact, I would argue that people are most often discriminated against based culture rather than skin color, nationality, or whatever. Don't misunderstand me, people still are discriminated against based on those things, but I think more commonly it is culture.

Jews, or Jewish descendants play an odd role compared to others. If I were bigoted against someone who came from a Jewish family, but weren't specifically believers I would be called antisemitic, or racist by many people. Many non-believing cultural people of Jewish decent still claim they are Jewish. I can't imagine, were the proverbial shoe on the other foot I would ever call the person an anti-christ, nor would I ever apply the label "Christian" to myself. So...what's the deal? Someone set me straight please. I just don't get it. Huh


Freedom of conscience requires that we give it to people we don't agree with. I think this value as laid out by the founders of the US Constitution are just as valuable today as it was back then when the main concern was a divine king imposing religion on his subjects.

I have no problem calling the religious beliefs someone has flat out wrong, immoral, and in many case crazy. However if we atheists are to have the freedom of our conscience to reject religion, we cannot discriminate against people who think differently than us and expect not to be discriminated against ourselves just for what we think. To me, this means any discrimination in the areas of employment, housing, commerce, government services and the protection of the law is an intolerable infringement on basic human rights.

So more general, discrimination against Jewish people, or any faith for that matter, is an intolerable assault on our basic rights as a free people.
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21-09-2013, 09:41 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 04:43 PM)Dena Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 01:39 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Making me, like Hitchens and Fry, Jewish (or Jew-ish) "on the side that counts".

I did not know Fry is Jewish.

He got a big nose?

My Gwynnies got a big nose. Heart

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21-09-2013, 09:59 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 09:41 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 04:43 PM)Dena Wrote:  I did not know Fry is Jewish.

He got a big nose?

My Gwynnies got a big nose. Heart

Me too.
Big Grin


Meanwhile, DL, wrt the second part of the thread title, while hunting for evidence for Dena, I spotted this relating to the mundanity of discrimination and the significance of language and the countering of discrimination through a free exchange of ideas.

The notion btw, of the right to speak, the right to be heard and perhaps most importantly, the right to read and listen is the reason why I disagree with the recent decree to censor talk about pedophilia.




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21-09-2013, 10:44 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 04:37 PM)Dena Wrote:  And this is why you do not understand, because you see "JEW" as a religion when that is not how we see or define ourselves.

I actually knew a guy who converted, twice, and then changed his mind. He sent his paperwork back to the Rabbis who had assisted him with his conversion and told them he no longer considered himself a Jew. No dice. They told him he was now and would forever be Jew whether he liked it or not. Didn't matter if he was religious, atheist, buddhist or crazy as a march hare. It's the same for those who were born Jews.

To me, as an outsider, people create their own identities. You're only part of a group if you are involved with it or identify with it. If you have no connections to it, you aren't part of it. The group can say that because of who your mother was that you are forever one of them, but that definition of the group is only really valid to those who identify as being part of it.

Think of it like Mormonism. Mormons are known for posthumous baptisms, baptizing people who never had connections to Mormonism in their lifetime and would not be considered a Mormon by anyone. However, Mormons consider anyone who has been baptized as a Mormon to be a Mormon. To Mormons, the unwilling dead become one of them. But the baptisms are only considered valid by Mormons, so while the Mormons call the deceased Mormons, to anyone who does not identify with the group, they are not and never were Mormon because the even-those-who-were-baptized-after-death definition of Mormon is not considered valid.

The same goes for Jews. The I-was-born-a-Jew-and-can-never-not-be-a-Jew definition is only valid if you consider it to be. Those who don't identify with the culture or religion don't consider it valid. To them, being called a Jew is like calling those dead people Mormons. The definition is illegitimate as far as they are concerned.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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21-09-2013, 11:33 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
Assume a person, Alice. Alice is a practicing... (rolls d20) Zoroastrian. She grew up in (rolls d10) Australia, with parents of (rolls 2d10) Canadian and German descent.

Alice takes up genealogy as a hobby. She discovers that her mothers mothers mothers mother was a Sephardic immigrant to Canada, who married the first man she could get to hold still long enough, who was Zoroastrian. In all the intervening years and generations, no one has mentioned Judaism, Jewish background, or anything of the sort.

Is Alice a Jew? Is her daughter, Bethany? Granddaughter Constance?

What if Alice (or Bethany, or Constance, or all) denies her Jewishness? At what point would any / all other Jewish people agree?

I am not asserting anything. I am testing boundaries of ideas I know little about. Please humor me, and forgive any insensitivity.

I AM he who is called... cat furniture.
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22-09-2013, 12:50 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 11:33 PM)I Am Wrote:  Alice takes up genealogy as a hobby. She discovers that her mothers mothers mothers mother was a Sephardic immigrant to Canada, who married the first man she could get to hold still long enough, who was Zoroastrian. In all the intervening years and generations, no one has mentioned Judaism, Jewish background, or anything of the sort.

Is Alice a Jew? Is her daughter, Bethany? Granddaughter Constance?

From what I gather, many would say "no" she isn't. Some might say yes though. If Alice were to go speak with her local Rabbis they would likely have varying opinions. It wouldn't be out of the question that if Alice were to want to be a part of the community, she would be told she would have to convert because her family had not been a part of anything Jewish in so many generations. I've heard of Rabbis insisting on a conversion if the great grandmother was not involved in Judaism. There is a point where simple ancestry does not make one Jewish.
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22-09-2013, 12:53 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 10:44 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  To me, as an outsider, people create their own identities. You're only part of a group if you are involved with it or identify with it. If you have no connections to it, you aren't part of it. The group can say that because of who your mother was that you are forever one of them, but that definition of the group is only really valid to those who identify as being part of it.

I understood the topic to be about atheist Jews. Just because one doesn't believe in a deity doesn't mean they have no connection to the Jewish people. Lacking belief in a god doesn't, at least today, rip you away from your connection to the Jewish world. In many cases, it may even be a secret. My atheism is not public knowledge.

As for the case of the convert who change his mind, he knew what he was doing. He knew up front what it meant. He knew he couldn't change his mind and that the Rabbis he worked with determined his status and the community agreed upon it. So, that's what he got himself into.
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22-09-2013, 07:39 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 09:59 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 09:41 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  He got a big nose?

My Gwynnies got a big nose. Heart

Me too.
Big Grin

I got a little Irish nose. Tongue

(21-09-2013 09:59 PM)DLJ Wrote:  ...I disagree with the recent decree to censor talk about pedophilia.

I don't know if anyone agrees with it, but I understand the rationale.

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