Jews and Discrimination.
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22-09-2013, 08:13 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
This thread made me think.

I have come to the conclusion that there is such a thing as a cultural Catholic and that I am one.

I grew up in a strictly catholic environment - everyone I knew was catholic, with a very few protestants thrown in.

All the outstanding architecture around me was catholic. Majestic cathedrals and churches towered over every city, town and village.

Art was catholic too - music and paintings etc. Church music was comforting and engulfed you. Gorgeous frescos, church windows, statues....

Even nature was catholic - climb up the alps and you will see crosses along the way, little chapels strewn haphazardly throughout, and every mountain top has a cross.

It was a culture, it imprinted me, and I still actually enjoy it, even though I did not buy the religion itself past age 10.

Now, I don't live in that culture anymore, and travelling back there shows that much has changed over the years, but the buildings, art and religious monuments of all kinds still remain... and they still give me a positive feeling. I do feel there like I belong somehow.

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22-09-2013, 08:55 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(22-09-2013 08:13 AM)Dom Wrote:  This thread made me think.

I have come to the conclusion that there is such a thing as a cultural Catholic and that I am one.

I grew up in a strictly catholic environment - everyone I knew was catholic, with a very few protestants thrown in.

All the outstanding architecture around me was catholic. Majestic cathedrals and churches towered over every city, town and village.

Art was catholic too - music and paintings etc. Church music was comforting and engulfed you. Gorgeous frescos, church windows, statues....

Even nature was catholic - climb up the alps and you will see crosses along the way, little chapels strewn haphazardly throughout, and every mountain top has a cross.

It was a culture, it imprinted me, and I still actually enjoy it, even though I did not buy the religion itself past age 10.

Now, I don't live in that culture anymore, and travelling back there shows that much has changed over the years, but the buildings, art and religious monuments of all kinds still remain... and they still give me a positive feeling. I do feel there like I belong somehow.

Hitchens liked telling the story of being held up by thugs in Northern Ireland and being asked whether he was a Catholic or Protestant. Upon responding that he was an atheist, he was asked "Catholic atheist, or Protestant atheist" Smile

Calling yourself a Catholic atheist made me think of that story.

I think there are so many culturally, but not religious, Jewish people simply because it would be a malevolent god that would allow a Holocaust on his "chosen people".
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22-09-2013, 09:38 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
I think this "religious culture" is changing and will pretty much go extinct over the time - and culture still does not equal race.

Europe is growing increasingly atheist, and while today's youth still sees the old monuments, I don't think they have such a pronounced influence anymore. A new culture is emerging.

Be that as it may be, it still doesn't make a "race".

As far as Jews as a race - there are some physical characteristics that many Jews share. So, does that make a race? Isn't "race" mostly based on physical characteristics?

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23-09-2013, 02:05 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(22-09-2013 08:13 AM)Dom Wrote:  This thread made me think.

I have come to the conclusion that there is such a thing as a cultural Catholic and that I am one.

I grew up in a strictly catholic environment - everyone I knew was catholic, with a very few protestants thrown in.

All the outstanding architecture around me was catholic. Majestic cathedrals and churches towered over every city, town and village.

Art was catholic too - music and paintings etc. Church music was comforting and engulfed you. Gorgeous frescos, church windows, statues....

Even nature was catholic - climb up the alps and you will see crosses along the way, little chapels strewn haphazardly throughout, and every mountain top has a cross.

It was a culture, it imprinted me, and I still actually enjoy it, even though I did not buy the religion itself past age 10.

Now, I don't live in that culture anymore, and travelling back there shows that much has changed over the years, but the buildings, art and religious monuments of all kinds still remain... and they still give me a positive feeling. I do feel there like I belong somehow.

Do you feel a particular connection to Catholic people?
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23-09-2013, 04:28 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
Anytime I provoke thought I am pleased with myself, I must admit. Forgive the lack of humility. Smile

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23-09-2013, 06:19 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(21-09-2013 04:37 PM)Dena Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 02:21 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  If you don't believe in the religion, why define yourself as part of that group if the only definition that would make you part of it is the one that doesn't exist outside of the group? If you leave the group, their definitions are irrelevant.

And this is why you do not understand, because you see "JEW" as a religion when that is not how we see or define ourselves.

I actually knew a guy who converted, twice, and then changed his mind. He sent his paperwork back to the Rabbis who had assisted him with his conversion and told them he no longer considered himself a Jew. No dice. They told him he was now and would forever be Jew whether he liked it or not. Didn't matter if he was religious, atheist, buddhist or crazy as a march hare. It's the same for those who were born Jews.

I think you are confusing genetic, cultural, and legalistic definitions. This is confused thinking.

There is clearly a gene pool descended from the people who left the Middle East centuries ago. Those people have been somewhat genetically and culturally isolated in the centuries that followed.

One may have ancestors from this ethnic group or not. One may adopt Judaism as a religion or not. These are very different things.

Are there ethnic Jews in my ancestry? I don't know. Doesn't matter to me.
There are ethnic Jews in the ancestry of some of my nieces and nephews. Doesn't seem matter a whole lot to them. You want to claim them as Jews? Why?

My genetic ancestry makes me a Druid by this logic.

These gene pools are of no real significance - they only have the power that we give them culturally.

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23-09-2013, 06:47 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(23-09-2013 06:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  My genetic ancestry makes me a Druid by this logic.

Laughat

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23-09-2013, 01:21 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(23-09-2013 02:05 AM)Dena Wrote:  
(22-09-2013 08:13 AM)Dom Wrote:  This thread made me think.

I have come to the conclusion that there is such a thing as a cultural Catholic and that I am one.

I grew up in a strictly catholic environment - everyone I knew was catholic, with a very few protestants thrown in.

All the outstanding architecture around me was catholic. Majestic cathedrals and churches towered over every city, town and village.

Art was catholic too - music and paintings etc. Church music was comforting and engulfed you. Gorgeous frescos, church windows, statues....

Even nature was catholic - climb up the alps and you will see crosses along the way, little chapels strewn haphazardly throughout, and every mountain top has a cross.

It was a culture, it imprinted me, and I still actually enjoy it, even though I did not buy the religion itself past age 10.

Now, I don't live in that culture anymore, and travelling back there shows that much has changed over the years, but the buildings, art and religious monuments of all kinds still remain... and they still give me a positive feeling. I do feel there like I belong somehow.

Do you feel a particular connection to Catholic people?

Nope, not just any Catholic people. But people who grew up the way I did, yes. It's not the religion, it's the culture.

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23-09-2013, 05:37 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
@Chas, she is defining 'Jew' as a race. Race is one of those terms that doesn't really have any meaning other than the one you ascribe to it. Ask any sociologist. Many people describe race as something unrelated to genetics. In Japan, for example, their are commonly described two races. The descendants of fishermen, and everyone else.

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23-09-2013, 07:38 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(23-09-2013 05:37 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  @Chas, she is defining 'Jew' as a race. Race is one of those terms that doesn't really have any meaning other than the one you ascribe to it. Ask any sociologist. Many people describe race as something unrelated to genetics. In Japan, for example, their are commonly described two races. The descendants of fishermen, and everyone else.

No, she confused her discussion with the "guy converts, then de-converts so still a Jew" thing. At least two kinds of Jew.

Let's leave the word 'race' out of it and stick to gene pools or ethnicity. 'Race' has too much baggage.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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