Jews and Discrimination.
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23-09-2013, 07:48 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(23-09-2013 07:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 05:37 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  @Chas, she is defining 'Jew' as a race. Race is one of those terms that doesn't really have any meaning other than the one you ascribe to it. Ask any sociologist. Many people describe race as something unrelated to genetics. In Japan, for example, their are commonly described two races. The descendants of fishermen, and everyone else.

No, she confused her discussion with the "guy converts, then de-converts so still a Jew" thing. At least two kinds of Jew.

Let's leave the word 'race' out of it and stick to gene pools or ethnicity. 'Race' has too much baggage.

There is a similarity between the Jews and The Romani or Gipsies. Not really a "race" or even true ethnicity but a shared language and tradition.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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23-09-2013, 07:51 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
A shared tradition is the definition of an ethnicity as far as I'm concerned. Language would fall under that umbrella as well.

@Chas, you can leave 'race' out of the discussion if you wish, but that kind of makes the discussion moot.

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23-09-2013, 07:55 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(23-09-2013 07:48 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 07:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, she confused her discussion with the "guy converts, then de-converts so still a Jew" thing. At least two kinds of Jew.

Let's leave the word 'race' out of it and stick to gene pools or ethnicity. 'Race' has too much baggage.

There is a similarity between the Jews and The Romani or Gipsies. Not really a "race" or even true ethnicity but a shared language and tradition.

There is a true genetic ethnicity in both of these groups. There are identifiable differences in allele frequencies between them and their surrounding populations.

But that is also true of other populations that common human perception sees as a ethnic groups.

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23-09-2013, 07:56 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(23-09-2013 07:51 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  A shared tradition is the definition of an ethnicity as far as I'm concerned. Language would fall under that umbrella as well.

@Chas, you can leave 'race' out of the discussion if you wish, but that kind of makes the discussion moot.

No, let's just use 'ethnicity' or 'genetic group' or some other term that doesn't bring in the racist riff-raff. Thumbsup

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23-09-2013, 08:02 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(23-09-2013 07:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 07:48 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  There is a similarity between the Jews and The Romani or Gipsies. Not really a "race" or even true ethnicity but a shared language and tradition.

There is a true genetic ethnicity in both of these groups. There are identifiable differences in allele frequencies between them and their surrounding populations.

But that is also true of other populations that common human perception sees as a ethnic groups.

Even in the US Romani tend to identify as members of that group, similar to Jews but the Romani used to be Hindu but mostly converted to Islam or Christianity (depending on the country they are in) while maintaining a separate group identity.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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23-09-2013, 08:08 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(23-09-2013 07:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 07:51 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  A shared tradition is the definition of an ethnicity as far as I'm concerned. Language would fall under that umbrella as well.

@Chas, you can leave 'race' out of the discussion if you wish, but that kind of makes the discussion moot.

No, let's just use 'ethnicity' or 'genetic group' or some other term that doesn't bring in the racist riff-raff. Thumbsup

Perhaps this is a discussion for Steven's Skypecast, if he ever bothers setting one up again.

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24-09-2013, 03:13 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(23-09-2013 06:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  I think you are confusing genetic, cultural, and legalistic definitions. This is confused thinking.

I'm not confused. I'm giving you the definitions at set by the Jewish community. In the end, that is who defines who is a Jew. Those three are all tied together. It's difficult to separate them.

(23-09-2013 06:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  You want to claim them as Jews?

No, I really don't care unless they do.

(23-09-2013 05:37 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  @Chas, she is defining 'Jew' as a race. Race is one of those terms that doesn't really have any meaning other than the one you ascribe to it. Ask any sociologist. Many people describe race as something unrelated to genetics. In Japan, for example, their are commonly described two races. The descendants of fishermen, and everyone else.

Incorrect. I'm defining "Jew" as a member of a nation or tribe. Race is genetic though just about useless as a term. Jews are Chinese, Mexican, Ethiopian, Italian, Irish, German, African. One can be born a Jew or choose to be a Jew. I can't choose to be black or asian. We're not a "race" as the world is generally used. We're a tribe.
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24-09-2013, 06:05 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:13 AM)Dena Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 06:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  I think you are confusing genetic, cultural, and legalistic definitions. This is confused thinking.

I'm not confused. I'm giving you the definitions at set by the Jewish community. In the end, that is who defines who is a Jew. Those three are all tied together. It's difficult to separate them.

(23-09-2013 06:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  You want to claim them as Jews?

No, I really don't care unless they do.

(23-09-2013 05:37 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  @Chas, she is defining 'Jew' as a race. Race is one of those terms that doesn't really have any meaning other than the one you ascribe to it. Ask any sociologist. Many people describe race as something unrelated to genetics. In Japan, for example, their are commonly described two races. The descendants of fishermen, and everyone else.

Incorrect. I'm defining "Jew" as a member of a nation or tribe. Race is genetic though just about useless as a term. Jews are Chinese, Mexican, Ethiopian, Italian, Irish, German, African. One can be born a Jew or choose to be a Jew. I can't choose to be black or asian. We're not a "race" as the world is generally used. We're a tribe.

But a tribe of what? How are a Chinese Jew and an atheist Ashkenaz members of the same tribe?

It is easy to separate the threads of ethnicity and religious practice. The confusion comes from using the appellation 'Jew' in two different ways and conflating them.

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24-09-2013, 07:15 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
When you think of "race", think of dogs, German Shepherds versus Chihuahuas or something like that.

You can have a Chihuahua who does a great job as a watchdog, and a German Shepherd who just wants to cuddle.

They still remain a German Shepherd and a Chihuahua.

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24-09-2013, 11:29 AM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:13 AM)Dena Wrote:  I'm not confused. I'm giving you the definitions at set by the Jewish community. In the end, that is who defines who is a Jew. Those three are all tied together. It's difficult to separate them.

(23-09-2013 05:37 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  @Chas, she is defining 'Jew' as a race. Race is one of those terms that doesn't really have any meaning other than the one you ascribe to it. Ask any sociologist. Many people describe race as something unrelated to genetics. In Japan, for example, their are commonly described two races. The descendants of fishermen, and everyone else.

Incorrect. I'm defining "Jew" as a member of a nation or tribe. Race is genetic though just about useless as a term. Jews are Chinese, Mexican, Ethiopian, Italian, Irish, German, African. One can be born a Jew or choose to be a Jew. I can't choose to be black or asian. We're not a "race" as the world is generally used. We're a tribe.

Well, I could go along with tribe, though not a nation. My problem is how you define who is in your tribe. Additionally, this 'tribe' in particular is extremely loose-knit. There is no leadership (no president, chief, elder, whatever). The community is spread extremely thin. I would think a better term would be ethnicity.

Jews don't determine who Jews are. Jews determine who they consider Jews to be. Each person defines themselves. I'm a non-Jew, and as a resident expert in non-Jewishness I have concluded that you are a non-Jew as well. Poof! You are no longer a Jew. You see how that logic works? If 'they' decided I am a Jew I wouldn't adhere to the label. I would not consider myself anymore Jewish than I was the day before.

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