Jews and Discrimination.
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24-09-2013, 12:37 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 11:29 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  If 'they' decided I am a Jew I wouldn't adhere to the label. I would not consider myself anymore Jewish than I was the day before.

I thought you started this thread to discuss those who consider themselves Jews and atheists. I explained how this could be possible. I haven't in my life met someone who was a Jew and didn't want the label. The closest I've seen is Sam Harris and he's never denied having a Jewish mother, he just doesn't care to identify that way. If someone really doesn't want to be considered a Jew, nobody is going to force them. Not in modern times. In the past it wouldn't have mattered but today one can generally control whether they are viewed as a Jew or not by society.

I'm not trying to be rude here, just honest. Whether or not you guys agree with or accept the definition of a Jew is entirely irrelevant just as it would be irrelevant if I agreed or disagreed with the definition of who is Chocktaw.
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24-09-2013, 12:46 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 12:37 PM)Dena Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 11:29 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  If 'they' decided I am a Jew I wouldn't adhere to the label. I would not consider myself anymore Jewish than I was the day before.

I thought you started this thread to discuss those who consider themselves Jews and atheists. I explained how this could be possible. I haven't in my life met someone who was a Jew and didn't want the label. The closest I've seen is Sam Harris and he's never denied having a Jewish mother, he just doesn't care to identify that way. If someone really doesn't want to be considered a Jew, nobody is going to force them. Not in modern times. In the past it wouldn't have mattered but today one can generally control whether they are viewed as a Jew or not by society.

I'm not trying to be rude here, just honest. Whether or not you guys agree with or accept the definition of a Jew is entirely irrelevant just as it would be irrelevant if I agreed or disagreed with the definition of who is Chocktaw.

The point we are making is that "the definition" does not exist. There are any number of definitions. You have stated yours.

And here, you contradict yourself:
Quote:I haven't in my life met someone who was a Jew and didn't want the label. The closest I've seen is Sam Harris and he's never denied having a Jewish mother, he just doesn't care to identify that way.

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24-09-2013, 12:56 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
So there is a jewish religion, a jewish race (people with the same ancestry and sharing some physical characteristics), and a jewish culture.

The reason we have this conversation is because all these things are merely labeled as jewish, so no one knows what anyone is talking about.

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24-09-2013, 01:43 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 12:56 PM)Dom Wrote:  So there is a jewish religion, a jewish race (people with the same ancestry and sharing some physical characteristics), and a jewish culture.

The reason we have this conversation is because all these things are merely labeled as jewish, so no one knows what anyone is talking about.

No, physical characteristics and ancestry are not what defines a Jew. A large portion of Jews are necessarily more closely related ancestraly , but that isn't what defines a Jew.

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24-09-2013, 01:45 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 01:43 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 12:56 PM)Dom Wrote:  So there is a jewish religion, a jewish race (people with the same ancestry and sharing some physical characteristics), and a jewish culture.

The reason we have this conversation is because all these things are merely labeled as jewish, so no one knows what anyone is talking about.

No, physical characteristics and ancestry are not what defines a Jew. A large portion of Jews are necessarily more closely related ancestraly , but that isn't what defines a Jew.

No, Dom has it exactly right.

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24-09-2013, 01:53 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
WHAT?! I said race and you rejected that term! Who is contradicting themselves now?

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24-09-2013, 02:03 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 01:53 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  WHAT?! I said race and you rejected that term! Who is contradicting themselves now?

She said 'race', meh. I said I wasn't going to use that term.

The point is that people mean those three things: ethnicity, culture, and religion; and they confuse and conflate them.

What definition do you want to use?

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24-09-2013, 02:25 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
I said it was a term without meaning other than the one you give it. Therefore if you use 'race' you cannot be wrong without defining it. I'd suggest omitting it as well. I'd say 'ethnicity'.

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24-09-2013, 02:30 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2013 02:42 PM by Dena.)
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 12:56 PM)Dom Wrote:  So there is a jewish religion, a jewish race (people with the same ancestry and sharing some physical characteristics), and a jewish culture.

Physical characteristics are generally stereotypes as Jews come in all sorts of colors, shapes and sizes. It can actually be very annoying to a Jew for someone to say to them "but you don't look Jewish" or to point out how Jewish they supposedly do look. Physical characteristics do not define a Jew. What defines a Jew? Were your parents? Did you formally choose to become a Jew? Those two things define who is and who isn't a Jew.

(24-09-2013 12:56 PM)Dom Wrote:  The reason we have this conversation is because all these things are merely labeled as jewish, so no one knows what anyone is talking about.

I don't know guys, I see this as fairly uncomplicated. One is a Jew either through birth or conversion and both groups share a history and culture. Some of those have also chosen to be observant of the religion. Some have chosen not to observe the religion. And some observe parts of the religion but are atheists (like me). That about sums it up.

Being born to Jewish parents or converting is the agreed upon criteria for being a Jew. Judaism is the religion formed by the Jewish people, one which many Jews choose to still participate. Jews have a shared history and culture and the religion of Judaism is a part of that culture.

Jews - a people group/tribe
Judaism - a religion often observed by that people group/tribe
Jewish - a descriptive word pertaining to either the people group, the religion or culture. Context of the discussion determines it's usage.
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24-09-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 02:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I said it was a term without meaning other than the one you give it. Therefore if you use 'race' you cannot be wrong without defining it. I'd suggest omitting it as well. I'd say 'ethnicity'.

OK, I must have misunderstood what you said previously.

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