Jews and Discrimination.
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24-09-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 02:30 PM)Dena Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 12:56 PM)Dom Wrote:  So there is a jewish religion, a jewish race (people with the same ancestry and sharing some physical characteristics), and a jewish culture.

Physical characteristics are generally stereotypes as Jews come in all sorts of colors, shapes and sizes. It can actually be very annoying to a Jew for someone to say to them "but you don't look Jewish" or to point out how Jewish they supposedly do look. Physical characteristics do not define a Jew. What defines a Jew? Were your parents? Did you formally choose to become a Jew? Those two things define who is and who isn't a Jew.

(24-09-2013 12:56 PM)Dom Wrote:  The reason we have this conversation is because all these things are merely labeled as jewish, so no one knows what anyone is talking about.

I don't know guys, I see this as fairly uncomplicated. One is a Jew either through birth or conversion and both groups share a history and culture. Some of those have also chosen to be observant of the religion. Some have chosen not to observe the religion. And some observe parts of the religion but are atheists (like me). That about sums it up.

Being born to Jewish parents or converting is the agreed upon criteria for being a Jew. Judaism is the religion formed by the Jewish people, one which many Jews choose to still participate. Jews have a shared history and culture and the religion of Judaism is a part of that culture.

Jews - a people group/tribe
Judaism - a religion often observed by that people group/tribe
Jewish - a descriptive word pertaining to either the people group, the religion or culture. Context of the discussion determines it's usage.

But, but... being born into a religion does not make you that religion. It's optional. So if you are still a Jew even though you are an atheist, what makes you a Jew? Ancestry? Culture? I see no other options...

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24-09-2013, 03:08 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 02:56 PM)Dom Wrote:  But, but... being born into a religion does not make you that religion. It's optional. So if you are still a Jew even though you are an atheist, what makes you a Jew? Ancestry? Culture? I see no other options...

Ancestry (or conversion), yes.
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24-09-2013, 03:09 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 02:30 PM)Dena Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 12:56 PM)Dom Wrote:  So there is a jewish religion, a jewish race (people with the same ancestry and sharing some physical characteristics), and a jewish culture.

Physical characteristics are generally stereotypes as Jews come in all sorts of colors, shapes and sizes. It can actually be very annoying to a Jew for someone to say to them "but you don't look Jewish" or to point out how Jewish they supposedly do look. Physical characteristics do not define a Jew. What defines a Jew? Were your parents? Did you formally choose to become a Jew? Those two things define who is and who isn't a Jew.

(24-09-2013 12:56 PM)Dom Wrote:  The reason we have this conversation is because all these things are merely labeled as jewish, so no one knows what anyone is talking about.

I don't know guys, I see this as fairly uncomplicated. One is a Jew either through birth or conversion and both groups share a history and culture. Some of those have also chosen to be observant of the religion. Some have chosen not to observe the religion. And some observe parts of the religion but are atheists (like me). That about sums it up.

Being born to Jewish parents or converting is the agreed upon criteria for being a Jew. Judaism is the religion formed by the Jewish people, one which many Jews choose to still participate. Jews have a shared history and culture and the religion of Judaism is a part of that culture.

Jews - a people group/tribe
Judaism - a religion often observed by that people group/tribe
Jewish - a descriptive word pertaining to either the people group, the religion or culture. Context of the discussion determines it's usage.

What do you mean by "through birth"?

Let's take your hypothetical Chinese Jew, a convert. Are her children Jewish?

You do realize how absurd that is, don't you?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-09-2013, 03:11 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  Let's take your hypothetical Chinese Jew, a convert. Are her children Jewish?

You do realize how absurd that is, don't you?


I actually know one of those. Yes, her children are Jewish. No, I do not understand why that is absurd? The children of a Jewish parent are Jewish.
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24-09-2013, 03:12 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:08 PM)Dena Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 02:56 PM)Dom Wrote:  But, but... being born into a religion does not make you that religion. It's optional. So if you are still a Jew even though you are an atheist, what makes you a Jew? Ancestry? Culture? I see no other options...

Ancestry (or conversion), yes.

Ancestry. So, genetics? Then one is an ethnic or cultural Jew.

Because labeling a baby Jewish or Catholic or Hindu or any other faith based on her parents faith is absurd.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-09-2013, 03:13 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:11 PM)Dena Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 03:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  Let's take your hypothetical Chinese Jew, a convert. Are her children Jewish?

You do realize how absurd that is, don't you?


I actually know one of those. Yes, her children are Jewish. No, I do not understand why that is absurd? The children of a Jewish parent are Jewish.

No, they aren't. They are too young to be any religion.

If the parents are Communists, is the child a Communist?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-09-2013, 03:20 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
I was born catholic. I suppose at least the ancestry on mom's side was all catholic (I thinks dad's were closet atheists for generations). That doesn't mean I am either catholic or atheist by birth. I am, however, catholic by culture, I grew up among cathedrals and churches and crosses on mountaintops and chapels in obscure places and it all makes me feel like I belong. I like xmas and easter egg hunts and such. So I suppose I am culturally catholic, even though I think catholics are poopy heads.

So I can't wrap my head around the definition of jewish. Can you give me a clear definition?

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24-09-2013, 03:25 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  Ancestry. So, genetics? Then one is an ethnic or cultural Jew.

Yes, one is a member of the tribe.

(24-09-2013 03:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, they aren't. They are too young to be any religion.

I thought you were asking me if they were Jews. It didn't occur to me that you would ask if they were observant of Judaism because yeah, that would be stupid.

(24-09-2013 03:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  If the parents are Communists, is the child a Communist?

No. But if the parents are Cherokee is the child Cherokee?
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24-09-2013, 03:26 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:20 PM)Dom Wrote:  I was born catholic.

No, you weren't.

Quote:I suppose at least the ancestry on mom's side was all catholic (I thinks dad's were closet atheists for generations). That doesn't mean I am either catholic or atheist by birth. I am, however, catholic by culture, I grew up among cathedrals and churches and crosses on mountaintops and chapels in obscure places and it all makes me feel like I belong. I like xmas and easter egg hunts and such. So I suppose I am culturally catholic, even though I think catholics are poopy heads.

So I can't wrap my head around the definition of jewish. Can you give me a clear definition?

You were born to Catholic parents, into a Catholic culture. You weren't born a Catholic.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-09-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:25 PM)Dena Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 03:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  Ancestry. So, genetics? Then one is an ethnic or cultural Jew.

Yes, one is a member of the tribe.

(24-09-2013 03:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, they aren't. They are too young to be any religion.

I thought you were asking me if they were Jews. It didn't occur to me that you would ask if they were observant of Judaism because yeah, that would be stupid.

(24-09-2013 03:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  If the parents are Communists, is the child a Communist?

No. But if the parents are Cherokee is the child Cherokee?

Of course the child is Cherokee. That's genetics.

This is the confusion I spoke of earlier. Genetics vs. belief. They are separate.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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