Jews and Discrimination.
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24-09-2013, 03:33 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:20 PM)Dom Wrote:  So I can't wrap my head around the definition of jewish. Can you give me a clear definition?

I did. Being born to a Jew or choosing formally to become a Jew and going through the prescribed process. That's it. Catholicism is a religion. Period. Jews are a tribe which I've now stated about a dozen times. Those are the differences and that is why one can be born a Jew (even if religion never plays a part in their life) but one isn't a Catholic simply by virtue of having a Catholic parent. Catholics have requirements for what makes one a Catholic and we should defer to whatever definition they give it.

Here are some links if you'd like to see what others have to say. I believe I'm allowed to post links? If not, I apologize.

Who is a Jew?

Nation? Race? Ethnicity? Family?

Jewish Ethnic Diversity

Jewish Multicultural Network
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24-09-2013, 03:34 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
Oops. Double Post.
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24-09-2013, 03:36 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  This is the confusion I spoke of earlier. Genetics vs. belief. They are separate.

And you don't have to believe anything to be a Jew. I provided some links that might be helpful, the first two in particular.
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24-09-2013, 03:37 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 03:25 PM)Dena Wrote:  Yes, one is a member of the tribe.


I thought you were asking me if they were Jews. It didn't occur to me that you would ask if they were observant of Judaism because yeah, that would be stupid.


No. But if the parents are Cherokee is the child Cherokee?

Of course the child is Cherokee. That's genetics.

This is the confusion I spoke of earlier. Genetics vs. belief. They are separate.

And let's consider the Chinese Jewish couple.

Let's say they have a 15 year-old, a 7 year-old, and mom is pregnant.
The couple converts to Judaism. Is the 15 year-old now Jewish? The 7 year-old?
Is the baby "born Jewish"?

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24-09-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  And let's consider the Chinese Jewish couple.

Let's say they have a 15 year-old, a 7 year-old, and mom is pregnant.
The couple converts to Judaism. Is the 15 year-old now Jewish? The 7 year-old?
Is the baby "born Jewish"?

The baby is born a Jew. The 15 and 7 year old would not be considered Jews by most religious communities. That isn't to say there aren't communities who would just assume they are also Jews or would never ask. I'm not sure how it would work if they wanted to go to Jewish camp or something of that nature. If they wanted to marry a Jew, the officiating Rabbi (or the parents) may ask if they ever officially converted.

I do know two people who have had this issue. One of them wanted his children to convert with him (his wife is not interested) but his Rabbi wanted them to wait. They are a bit younger.

In another case, the woman is divorced and her husband does not want her children to be Jewish. So, she converted on her own and they can decide when they are adults.

I only know the parents in these cases so I can't tell you how the children feel.
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24-09-2013, 03:51 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:46 PM)Dena Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 03:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  And let's consider the Chinese Jewish couple.

Let's say they have a 15 year-old, a 7 year-old, and mom is pregnant.
The couple converts to Judaism. Is the 15 year-old now Jewish? The 7 year-old?
Is the baby "born Jewish"?

The baby is born a Jew. The 15 and 7 year old would not be considered Jews by most religious communities. That isn't to say there aren't communities who would just assume they are also Jews or would never ask. I'm not sure how it would work if they wanted to go to Jewish camp or something of that nature. If they wanted to marry a Jew, the officiating Rabbi (or the parents) may ask if they ever officially converted.

I do know two people who have had this issue. One of them wanted his children to convert with him (his wife is not interested) but his Rabbi wanted them to wait. They are a bit younger.

In another case, the woman is divorced and her husband does not want her children to be Jewish. So, she converted on her own and they can decide when they are adults.

I only know the parents in these cases so I can't tell you how the children feel.

So, the judgement of who is Jewish is up to "the community" and it varies from community to community.

The concept of "Jewish" is extrinsic, not intrinsic, to the children. It is a judgement made by others.

This is why it is absurd to refer to anyone being "born <insert religion here>".

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-09-2013, 03:54 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 03:20 PM)Dom Wrote:  I was born catholic.

No, you weren't.

Quote:I suppose at least the ancestry on mom's side was all catholic (I thinks dad's were closet atheists for generations). That doesn't mean I am either catholic or atheist by birth. I am, however, catholic by culture, I grew up among cathedrals and churches and crosses on mountaintops and chapels in obscure places and it all makes me feel like I belong. I like xmas and easter egg hunts and such. So I suppose I am culturally catholic, even though I think catholics are poopy heads.

So I can't wrap my head around the definition of jewish. Can you give me a clear definition?

You were born to Catholic parents, into a Catholic culture. You weren't born a Catholic.

I was trying to relate it to the Chinese kid born jewish because the mother converted... that makes as much sense as my being born catholic.

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24-09-2013, 03:56 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2013 04:04 PM by Chas.)
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:33 PM)Dena Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 03:20 PM)Dom Wrote:  So I can't wrap my head around the definition of jewish. Can you give me a clear definition?

I did. Being born to a Jew or choosing formally to become a Jew and going through the prescribed process. That's it. Catholicism is a religion. Period. Jews are a tribe which I've now stated about a dozen times. Those are the differences and that is why one can be born a Jew (even if religion never plays a part in their life) but one isn't a Catholic simply by virtue of having a Catholic parent. Catholics have requirements for what makes one a Catholic and we should defer to whatever definition they give it.

Here are some links if you'd like to see what others have to say. I believe I'm allowed to post links? If not, I apologize.

Who is a Jew?

Nation? Race? Ethnicity? Family?

Jewish Ethnic Diversity

Jewish Multicultural Network

Catholics would tend to disagree with your assessment.

And why would being born after one's parents converted to Judaism be different than being born before they converted? (This is reference to the Chinese converts.)
Rather arbitrary, wouldn't you agree?

Quote:According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.

So, different sets of rather arbitrary rules. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-09-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 03:46 PM)Dena Wrote:  The baby is born a Jew. The 15 and 7 year old would not be considered Jews by most religious communities. That isn't to say there aren't communities who would just assume they are also Jews or would never ask. I'm not sure how it would work if they wanted to go to Jewish camp or something of that nature. If they wanted to marry a Jew, the officiating Rabbi (or the parents) may ask if they ever officially converted.

I do know two people who have had this issue. One of them wanted his children to convert with him (his wife is not interested) but his Rabbi wanted them to wait. They are a bit younger.

In another case, the woman is divorced and her husband does not want her children to be Jewish. So, she converted on her own and they can decide when they are adults.

I only know the parents in these cases so I can't tell you how the children feel.

So, the judgement of who is Jewish is up to "the community" and it varies from community to community.

The concept of "Jewish" is extrinsic, not intrinsic, to the children. It is a judgement made by others.

This is why it is absurd to refer to anyone being "born <insert religion here>".

This is what I said pages pages ago. And as a non-Jew I proclaimed her a non-Jew as well. Tongue

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24-09-2013, 04:23 PM
RE: Jews and Discrimination.
(24-09-2013 03:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  And why would being born after one's parents converted to Judaism be different than being born before they converted? (This is reference to the Chinese converts.)
Rather arbitrary, wouldn't you agree?

Maybe so. I don't particular care either way.

I think I've given enough time to this topic. You've got the information. If you choose to decide it's stupid, so be it. I'm a Jew. I'm an atheist. I'm quite happy with it. I know others who feel the same way. Smile
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