Josephus/NT Parallel: Jesus Heals Bartimaeus
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04-01-2017, 03:48 PM
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: Jesus Heals Bartimaeus
(04-01-2017 08:50 AM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  
(03-01-2017 03:59 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You write

"Similarly, the NT version tells us that Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus (progenitors come after their parents) who is blind, which could be taken as a metaphor for people who write falsehoods and contradictions. "

So, according to you, Bartimaeus is a metaphor for "people who write falsehoods and contradictions." Ok. However, you then claim

Almost, he is a metaphor for Timeus and those that came after him and by association other Greek writers who wrote lies and contradictions "on purpose".

(03-01-2017 03:59 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "This is so placed as to have you assume that it is Bartimaeus who is crying out all the more, but if you know the parallel you can see this is Josephus bitching a bunch more about how horrible the Greek writers are."

So Bartimaeus, somehow, now, according to you, "...is Josephus..."

No, sorry, let me try to clarify. What I was trying to say is that the gospel passage, like any good irony, can be interpreted in at least two ways, the surface reading, which is a lie, and the hidden meaning that is the truth. Remember the definition of irony:

-"the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect."
-"a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions is clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.

The gospel passage uses a lot of ambiguous pronouns:
"he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me. And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me."

Because of the pronouns, we have the obvious way of reading it, that Bartimaeus was crying out a great deal more. But since it is irony and we know the reference passage that this is mocking, we can see that Josephus says "what need I say more" about insulting the Greek writers, so the gospel passage says "many charged him that he should hold his peace". It is like it is answering what Josephus wrote, line by line. He says the Greek writers have heard enough and they told Josephus to shove it, in this tragedy play reenactment. But "he" cried out a great deal more, because Josephus kept on insulting the Greeks even after he asked what need he had to say more. Bartimaeus is the Greek writer Timeus who is sarcastically begging for mercy ("like oh, yeah, I really need mercy from you, you son of David") and to be shown the light. Jesus represents Josephus in this tragedy. But the pronouns are flexible and you have to watch out and pay close attention to see the story. You have to read both of them carefully and keep both in your mind at the same time.

(03-01-2017 03:59 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  So Bartimaeus, somehow, now, according to you, "...is Josephus..."

You can't change the identity of a character (so that he represents two different people) and expect your readers to take you seriously.

You don't really leave much room for the benefit of the doubt here. Consider that if something seems confusing that maybe it is because I didn't explain it well enough (I'm not a writer and I don't have an editor and this is just a forum) or that you just haven't read enough or carefully enough to understand it yet. In either case I am willing to try and explain better if there is any confusion.

I've just spent 10 minutes trying to understand you. I'm still confused.

You say Bartimaeus is a metaphor for Greek writers.

You also undeniably imply it is Josephus who cries out, and the Greek writers ask him to shut up. Yet it is undeniably Bartimaeus (the Greek writers) who shouts out. So Baetimaeus asks himself to shut up !!!????

You say Josephus is Jesus.

What this means is that Bartimaeus=Greek writers=Josephus=Jesus. Huh Facepalm
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05-01-2017, 02:42 AM
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: Jesus Heals Bartimaeus
(04-01-2017 03:48 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've just spent 10 minutes trying to understand you. I'm still confused.

You say Bartimaeus is a metaphor for Greek writers.

You also undeniably imply it is Josephus who cries out, and the Greek writers ask him to shut up. Yet it is undeniably Bartimaeus (the Greek writers) who shouts out. So Baetimaeus asks himself to shut up !!!????

You say Josephus is Jesus.

What this means is that Bartimaeus=Greek writers=Josephus=Jesus. Huh Facepalm

No, I never implied they are all the same person. Timaeus represents Timeus and Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus represents those that came after Timeus and therefore as a proxy for all the Greek writers that Josephus hates. Jesus represents Josephus. The confusion is only in the head of the reader. That is how irony works, there is what a casual reader would read and what someone who knows the reference, perhaps if they were familiar with Timeus and Josephus' critique of him, would understand the real meaning to be. The reason irony and satire give you that little bit of pleasure is because you see the reference and understand what it is really supposed to mean, even though it is using language that would normally mean the opposite. In this case it is who was crying out and wouldn't shut up. The Bible passage says "many charged him to hold his peace but he cried out a great deal more". It is using personal pronouns, so the casual reader would conclude that they told Bartimaeus to shut up but he cried out a great deal more. If you very carefully compare the texts you see that Josephus says "what need I say more" about how horrible the Greek writers are. Since this satire is being written by Greek satirists, they are clearly the ones who would be (in our heads) telling Josephus to shut up, but even after Josephus said "what need I say more" he continues and cries out a bunch more like a whiney asshole. The pleasure of satire is to see what the casual reader would not see.
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05-01-2017, 05:21 AM
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: Jesus Heals Bartimaeus
(05-01-2017 02:42 AM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  No, I never implied they are all the same person. Timaeus represents Timeus and Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus represents those that came after Timeus and therefore as a proxy for all the Greek writers that Josephus hates. Jesus represents Josephus. The confusion is only in the head of the reader. That is how irony works, there is what a casual reader would read and what someone who knows the reference, perhaps if they were familiar with Timeus and Josephus' critique of him, would understand the real meaning to be. The reason irony and satire give you that little bit of pleasure is because you see the reference and understand what it is really supposed to mean, even though it is using language that would normally mean the opposite. In this case it is who was crying out and wouldn't shut up. The Bible passage says "many charged him to hold his peace but he cried out a great deal more". It is using personal pronouns, so the casual reader would conclude that they told Bartimaeus to shut up but he cried out a great deal more. If you very carefully compare the texts you see that Josephus says "what need I say more" about how horrible the Greek writers are. Since this satire is being written by Greek satirists, they are clearly the ones who would be (in our heads) telling Josephus to shut up, but even after Josephus said "what need I say more" he continues and cries out a bunch more like a whiney asshole. The pleasure of satire is to see what the casual reader would not see.

Firstly, spell the guy's name correctly eh?

I used to be proud of knowing the ancient world. Now it's a Google away.

Just some BS on this other BS.

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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05-01-2017, 11:15 AM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2017 01:12 PM by fhqwhgads.)
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: Jesus Heals Bartimaeus
(05-01-2017 05:21 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Firstly, spell the guy's name correctly eh?

It is Timaeus and Bartimaeus in the KJV of Mark and Timeus in the Whiston translation of Josephus, so please tell me when I managed to spell it wrong?


(05-01-2017 05:21 AM)Banjo Wrote:  I used to be proud of knowing the ancient world. Now it's a Google away.

Keep trying with Google, you'll figure it out.
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