Josephus/NT Parallel: The Seven Seals of the Apocalypse
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05-01-2017, 04:24 AM
Josephus/NT Parallel: The Seven Seals of the Apocalypse
For anyone who may still doubt the dependence of the New Testament on the works of Josephus, or the "preterist" view, that the second coming and destruction of the temple and Israel and the apocalypse of the Jews already happened. This set of parallels (9 in total, very long, but I think worth the read) are from the book of Revelation and show that the "book with the seven seals" represents the Wars of the Jews with its seven books. Each numbered seal of the apocalypse has a reference to a passage in the corresponding book of the Wars of the Jews and what happened there.

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05-01-2017, 04:31 AM
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: The Seven Seals of the Apocalypse
Copypasta. TL;DR Sorry.

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05-01-2017, 05:13 AM
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: The Seven Seals of the Apocalypse
I already read Josephus. He was a prick anyway.

Why post that??? Gasp

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05-01-2017, 07:53 AM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2017 08:05 AM by fhqwhgads.)
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: The Seven Seals of the Apocalypse
(05-01-2017 05:13 AM)Banjo Wrote:  I already read Josephus. He was a prick anyway.

Why post that??? Gasp
To show that the Gospels and the book of Revelation are almost entirely based on the works of Josephus, especially the Wars if the Jews.

Also, he certainly was much worse than just a prick. He provides so many ridicule worthy quotes.
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05-01-2017, 11:46 AM
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: The Seven Seals of the Apocalypse
I am no fan of the supposed veracity of scripture but am automatically suspicious of this sort of pattern-matching enterprise because it is so easy to overdetermine such efforts and see patterns where they don't exist. Just looking at the "Sixth Seal" in isolation for example I see no reason to say "Coincidence? I think not!!", there is no obvious borrowing of metaphor or phrasing between the two. Both describe the horror of the defeated in war, which one would expect to see depicted any number of places in ancient writings.

My view of the Gospels is that they are a late codification of Christian orthodoxy after the dry run of the much earlier-penned Pauline letters. The gospels evolve Jesus from Paul's heavenly god-figure to a flesh-and-blood god-man, more in fitting with the developing anti-gnostic orthodoxy of the early church. They are derived from earlier, presently lost sources such as the hypothetical "Q manuscript" and it is my view that they present a composite, or possibly entirely made-up, character some two or three generations after the alleged events that they recount. There is plenty right there to discredit them without resorting to strained Josephus parallels: the inter-gospel disagreements and inconsistencies, the fantastical nature of the stories, the anonymous authorship (the alleged authors are purely attributed and traditional authorship claims), the lack of any rigor or declared methodology in relating the events, the lack of any real secular corroborating sources of the alleged events.
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05-01-2017, 01:01 PM
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: The Seven Seals of the Apocalypse
(05-01-2017 11:46 AM)mordant Wrote:  Just looking at the "Sixth Seal" in isolation for example I see no reason to say "Coincidence? I think not!!", there is no obvious borrowing of metaphor or phrasing between the two.

Oh, no, you are very wrong about that. The Sixth Seal is a very solid identification. First of all, it is Book 6 and seal 6. In both passage (JW, Book 6, 8:4, – Revelation 6:12-17) we have:

1) The Sixth Seal: Terror - terror fell upon the tyrants... they were quite stunned

2) hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks - went down into the subterranean vaults

3) the great day of his wrath is come - the power of God exercised upon these wicked wretches

4) who shall be able to stand? - they fell upon their face

5) Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne - insolent and arrogant in their wicked practices, to be cast down and to tremble... and greatly lamented their own mad conduct

"terror", "everyone hiding underground", and "not being able to stand", and "God exercises his wrath", "hiding their faces from the coming" and all of that perfectly in Book VI. Looking at the quotes above, can you even guess in every case which is the NT and which is Josephus? These are the same passages and I esteem this parallel as proven. Take that together with the other 6 very well grounded parallels to the 6 seals and this establishes firmly that the "book with the seven seals" is a reference to the Wars of the Jews.
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05-01-2017, 04:14 PM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2017 04:54 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: The Seven Seals of the Apocalypse
More unsupported dot connecting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel
These concepts did not originate from Josephus.
The concept of Apocalyptic seal (breaking) was widely circulating the ancient near East. The ideas were available to anyone, and had been for centuries.
They could have been using similar sources and there were hundreds of "Books of Revelation" with apocalyptic visions.




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05-01-2017, 04:28 PM
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: The Seven Seals of the Apocalypse
(05-01-2017 04:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  More unsupported dot connecting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel
These concepts did not originate from Josephus.
The concept of Apocalyptic seal (breaking) was widely circulating the ancient near East. The ideas were available to anyone, and had been for centuries.

Is Fuckwads in the same class of dot-connector as Deltaboy? Consider

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05-01-2017, 04:42 PM
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: The Seven Seals of the Apocalypse
(05-01-2017 07:53 AM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  
(05-01-2017 05:13 AM)Banjo Wrote:  I already read Josephus. He was a prick anyway.

Why post that??? Gasp
To show that the Gospels and the book of Revelation are almost entirely based on the works of Josephus, especially the Wars if the Jews.

Also, he certainly was much worse than just a prick. He provides so many ridicule worthy quotes.

OR.....Revelations could be the result of spotted mushrooms growing on the islands off of Greece where it might have been written.


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^^^ That's from an early Christian mosaics in the Basilica of Aquileia from the early 4th century.

OR....the guy who wrote Revelations was two bricks short of a load.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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05-01-2017, 05:46 PM
RE: Josephus/NT Parallel: The Seven Seals of the Apocalypse
(05-01-2017 01:01 PM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  
(05-01-2017 11:46 AM)mordant Wrote:  Just looking at the "Sixth Seal" in isolation for example I see no reason to say "Coincidence? I think not!!", there is no obvious borrowing of metaphor or phrasing between the two.

Oh, no, you are very wrong about that. The Sixth Seal is a very solid identification. First of all, it is Book 6 and seal 6. In both passage (JW, Book 6, 8:4, – Revelation 6:12-17) we have:

1) The Sixth Seal: Terror - terror fell upon the tyrants... they were quite stunned

2) hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks - went down into the subterranean vaults

3) the great day of his wrath is come - the power of God exercised upon these wicked wretches

4) who shall be able to stand? - they fell upon their face

5) Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne - insolent and arrogant in their wicked practices, to be cast down and to tremble... and greatly lamented their own mad conduct

"terror", "everyone hiding underground", and "not being able to stand", and "God exercises his wrath", "hiding their faces from the coming" and all of that perfectly in Book VI. Looking at the quotes above, can you even guess in every case which is the NT and which is Josephus? These are the same passages and I esteem this parallel as proven. Take that together with the other 6 very well grounded parallels to the 6 seals and this establishes firmly that the "book with the seven seals" is a reference to the Wars of the Jews.
I am not asserting that there are NO similarities, simply that there are simpler unforced explanations for the ones there actually are.

What seems far more likely to me if there is anything derivative going on, is that both the the NT and Josephus just recycle stock themes commonly used in ancient writings, as another poster ably pointed out.
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