Journalists Face Felony Charges in Mass Arrests during Inauguration
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31-01-2017, 05:36 AM
RE: Journalists Face Felony Charges in Mass Arrests during Inauguration
(25-01-2017 04:59 PM)ImFred Wrote:  It's obvious no matter how fascist America becomes under Trump too many people will live in denial.
I think you give Trump too much credit. For America to become fascist, more and more powers of government have to fall under one person, and the constitution clearly sets the three branches of government to check each other's power. Also the 22nd amendment limits the president to two terms. It'll take a lot more than Trump to overthrow this system.

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31-01-2017, 06:41 AM
RE: Journalists Face Felony Charges in Mass Arrests during Inauguration
He took a pretty good swing at the judicial and legislative branches firing Yates and plugging in his own appointee. The electoral college is supposed to be a check on the executive branch. It failed. James Madison laid out a solid foundation against tyranny but it's not foolproof. It takes people with the fortitude to implement it correctly. We've underestimated Trump long enough. We've pretended our democracy is indestructible long enough. Our government has a malignant tumor.
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31-01-2017, 06:53 AM
RE: Journalists Face Felony Charges in Mass Arrests during Inauguration
(31-01-2017 05:36 AM)BrianChariott Wrote:  
(25-01-2017 04:59 PM)ImFred Wrote:  It's obvious no matter how fascist America becomes under Trump too many people will live in denial.
I think you give Trump too much credit. For America to become fascist, more and more powers of government have to fall under one person, and the constitution clearly sets the three branches of government to check each other's power. Also the 22nd amendment limits the president to two terms. It'll take a lot more than Trump to overthrow this system.

Fascism has many faces as this word denote not only Mussolini Italy system of governance but also a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control or even oppressive rule. There is no need for Trump to have all power, other branches not stopping him are enough for a taste of autocracy or something that could colloquially be called fascism.

There are also troubling issues of Guantanamo or Patriot Act - there is no need for One Great Leader to country starting sliding into what could colloquially be called fascism. Fascism could be also about political climate - looking for scapegoat, increasing intolerance, one true way of being Amercian, etc.

Though fascism may be not best word to describe what is happening (or not happening) in USA it is catchy and scary enough to merit some reaction before it is too late to do something.

Having said that I doubt that Trump rule will be so bad as some here claims. It remind me of Poland and hysteria following Law and Justice victory in parliamentary elections few years ago. They done some shady things (and are doing more truly nasty shit now when they returned to power) but it wasn't much worse than previous or next gov's done. Much of it was media demonization of political enemy thing quite common in Poland. Or at least I see it that way.

To be fair Trump victory will hardly have impact on my life so I could afford to look on it as a curiosity of some sort bur that detached perspective does not make me right. Trump could be more dangerous than I realize given that my knowledge of USA is well, far from deep.

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31-01-2017, 07:54 AM
RE: Journalists Face Felony Charges in Mass Arrests during Inauguration
Did you live through Wojciech Jaruzelski and Lech Wałęsa?
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31-01-2017, 08:12 AM
RE: Journalists Face Felony Charges in Mass Arrests during Inauguration
(31-01-2017 07:54 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Did you live through Wojciech Jaruzelski and Lech Wałęsa?

I was born 1990 so you could say that I lived through Wałęsa rule. Not that I remember much.

I can't help but wonder where you intend to go with that line of questioning. Poland just after transformation and USA under Trump do not have much in common.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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31-01-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: Journalists Face Felony Charges in Mass Arrests during Inauguration
(31-01-2017 06:53 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Though fascism may be not best word to describe what is happening (or not happening) in USA it is catchy and scary enough to merit some reaction before it is too late to do something.

Though I agree with most of your post, I have to point this part out. This is one of the things I critique the left on. When you use words like fascist and fascism so often, and the word isn't describing an oppressive regime, the word loses all meaning. Like the boy who cried wolf, no one will take us seriously afterwards. Our arguments would be better constructed if we avoid such buzzwords and clearly explain how the policies of the right will affect people and how that effect is bad.

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31-01-2017, 03:20 PM
RE: Journalists Face Felony Charges in Mass Arrests during Inauguration
(31-01-2017 03:06 PM)BrianChariott Wrote:  
(31-01-2017 06:53 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Though fascism may be not best word to describe what is happening (or not happening) in USA it is catchy and scary enough to merit some reaction before it is too late to do something.

Though I agree with most of your post, I have to point this part out. This is one of the things I critique the left on. When you use words like fascist and fascism so often, and the word isn't describing an oppressive regime, the word loses all meaning. Like the boy who cried wolf, no one will take us seriously afterwards. Our arguments would be better constructed if we avoid such buzzwords and clearly explain how the policies of the right will affect people and how that effect is bad.

You could skip the "us" and "our" in your post - I'm not American and I don't know if I would be considered left by USA standards.

As for clearly explaining - it means shit when voters make their choice based on emotions and feelings of disenfranchisement. I doubt that you win with emotions and national pride with emotionless language. Some part of me also thinks that right should get a taste of it's own medicine - if leftist are commies, then right could be fascists. It may be counterproductive or it may bar the way from real fascism.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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31-01-2017, 05:43 PM
RE: Journalists Face Felony Charges in Mass Arrests during Inauguration
(31-01-2017 08:12 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(31-01-2017 07:54 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Did you live through Wojciech Jaruzelski and Lech Wałęsa?

I was born 1990 so you could say that I lived through Wałęsa rule. Not that I remember much.

I can't help but wonder where you intend to go with that line of questioning. Poland just after transformation and USA under Trump do not have much in common.

I just think it's interesting. I don't really know but I think Poland has been changing very quickly. I'm off topic. I just think it's cool that you're Polish. I have a Polish internet friend. He knows an incredible lot about music. I taught English in Korea and Japan and thought about Poland but it's hard for Americans to get work there.
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31-01-2017, 05:50 PM
RE: Journalists Face Felony Charges in Mass Arrests during Inauguration
(31-01-2017 03:20 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(31-01-2017 03:06 PM)BrianChariott Wrote:  Though I agree with most of your post, I have to point this part out. This is one of the things I critique the left on. When you use words like fascist and fascism so often, and the word isn't describing an oppressive regime, the word loses all meaning. Like the boy who cried wolf, no one will take us seriously afterwards. Our arguments would be better constructed if we avoid such buzzwords and clearly explain how the policies of the right will affect people and how that effect is bad.

You could skip the "us" and "our" in your post - I'm not American and I don't know if I would be considered left by USA standards.

As for clearly explaining - it means shit when voters make their choice based on emotions and feelings of disenfranchisement. I doubt that you win with emotions and national pride with emotionless language. Some part of me also thinks that right should get a taste of it's own medicine - if leftist are commies, then right could be fascists. It may be counterproductive or it may bar the way from real fascism.
Good point, but I think we can both agree it turned out counterproductive in 2016. Maybe there's a balance somewhere in the middle.

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01-02-2017, 12:09 AM
RE: Journalists Face Felony Charges in Mass Arrests during Inauguration
(31-01-2017 05:50 PM)BrianChariott Wrote:  
(31-01-2017 03:20 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  You could skip the "us" and "our" in your post - I'm not American and I don't know if I would be considered left by USA standards.

As for clearly explaining - it means shit when voters make their choice based on emotions and feelings of disenfranchisement. I doubt that you win with emotions and national pride with emotionless language. Some part of me also thinks that right should get a taste of it's own medicine - if leftist are commies, then right could be fascists. It may be counterproductive or it may bar the way from real fascism.
Good point, but I think we can both agree it turned out counterproductive in 2016. Maybe there's a balance somewhere in the middle.

I think fascist is a decent approximation. It carries the connotation of a cult of personality and the ideology that a single "strong" man can "fix everything", and also that anyone who opposes or even criticizes the strong man is a traitor. Also such strong men tend to be sabre rattling, authoritarian lunatics who target minorities. I think Trump well fits that description.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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