Judges 1
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20-11-2015, 07:08 PM
RE: Judges 1
(20-11-2015 06:32 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 06:27 PM)jennybee Wrote:  God had them raped by David's son in front of everyone.
Did God really have them raped? Or did God know that David's actions would ultimately result in it?
Example. If I were to say to a child "if you play with the fire you are going to get burned". Does that mean if the child gets burned that it was my doing?

In your example, it's not your doing but it’s your responsibility if your child gets hurt while you could have stopped it and explained him in a better fashion. If you suspect that your child is going to do something dangerously stupid after you told not to do it, it’s you responsibility to explain him in a better fashion. There is no right to be willfully incompetent when you have a positon of authority. God, being the supreme authority, is supremely responsible and is stuck with a Nirvana argument, unlike the rest of us, concerning his actions.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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20-11-2015, 07:09 PM
RE: Judges 1
In the end it really doesn't matter what my views on the subject is. I don't think anyone here really believes any of it ever really happened anyway. So why explain.
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20-11-2015, 07:11 PM
RE: Judges 1
(20-11-2015 07:07 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 06:55 PM)jennybee Wrote:  No this is what it would be like:

Parent: Don't play with fire or you will get burned.

Child plays with fire anyway.

Parent gets pissed and lights child's friend on fire to teach child playing with fire a lesson.
I don't agree. I look at God to be more of a very strict yet loving parent who believes in the "school of hard knocks". Rather a vengeful psychopath.

He is acting like a sadist. Hard knocks? Rape of women and the killing of an infant is more than hard knocks--it's sadistic.
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20-11-2015, 07:12 PM
RE: Judges 1
(20-11-2015 07:08 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 06:32 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Did God really have them raped? Or did God know that David's actions would ultimately result in it?
Example. If I were to say to a child "if you play with the fire you are going to get burned". Does that mean if the child gets burned that it was my doing?

In your example, it's not your doing but it’s your responsibility if your child gets hurt while you could have stopped it and explained him in a better fashion. If you suspect that your child is going to do something dangerously stupid after you told not to do it, it’s you responsibility to explain him in a better fashion. There is no right to be willfully incompetent when you have a positon of authority. God, being the supreme authority, is supremely responsible and is stuck with a Nirvana argument, unlike the rest of us, concerning his actions.
Ok. So let's just say I told you not to play with the fire or else you will get burned. Am I responsible if you do? Did I cause you to get burned because you didn't listen to me?
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20-11-2015, 07:13 PM
RE: Judges 1
(20-11-2015 07:11 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 07:07 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I don't agree. I look at God to be more of a very strict yet loving parent who believes in the "school of hard knocks". Rather a vengeful psychopath.

He is acting like a sadist. Hard knocks? Rape of women and the killing of an infant is more than hard knocks.
All consequences of the actions of David. Not because God did it.
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20-11-2015, 07:14 PM
RE: Judges 1
(20-11-2015 07:09 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  In the end it really doesn't matter what my views on the subject is. I don't think anyone here really believes any of it ever really happened anyway. So why explain.

It's just a discussion. I used to be a believer like you. It's okay to think critically about the bible. It's okay to pull it apart and ask questions.
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20-11-2015, 07:17 PM
RE: Judges 1
(20-11-2015 07:13 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 07:11 PM)jennybee Wrote:  He is acting like a sadist. Hard knocks? Rape of women and the killing of an infant is more than hard knocks.
All consequences of the actions of David. Not because God did it.

That's not what it says in the passage. It was ordered by God.

2 Samuel 12:11 "Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun."
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20-11-2015, 07:26 PM
RE: Judges 1
(20-11-2015 07:17 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 07:13 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  All consequences of the actions of David. Not because God did it.

That's not what it says in the passage. It was ordered by God.

2 Samuel 12:11 "Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun."
You are right. I have to admit that in this particular case it was God's wrath. I was incorrect.
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20-11-2015, 08:31 PM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2015 08:38 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Judges 1
(20-11-2015 07:12 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 07:08 PM)epronovost Wrote:  In your example, it's not your doing but it’s your responsibility if your child gets hurt while you could have stopped it and explained him in a better fashion. If you suspect that your child is going to do something dangerously stupid after you told not to do it, it’s you responsibility to explain him in a better fashion. There is no right to be willfully incompetent when you have a positon of authority. God, being the supreme authority, is supremely responsible and is stuck with a Nirvana argument, unlike the rest of us, concerning his actions.
Ok. So let's just say I told you not to play with the fire or else you will get burned. Am I responsible if you do? Did I cause you to get burned because you didn't listen to me?

Depends. Have you done all in your power to explain me the danger and the stupidity of my actions? Have you made use of different techniques when you realised I wasn't understanding or listenning? Were you convinced I would never do it? Could you have stopped me in a more direct fashion without putting yourself (or me) at risk of suffering equal or even superior problems? Were you there when the evenement happenned? Were you suppose to take care of me? Are you in a situation of much greater authority? Who and what are you supposed to be? A friend, a father, a protector, a lover, a teacher an ennemy, a passerby? Depending on your answers to those questions, the situation will be judged differently. In most cases, its safe to assume that we are both guilty. My punishment was to be burned. What's going to be yours?

PS: Need I remind you that humans cannot be hold to be perfect. Doing otherwise would be commiting a Nirvana fallacy. If God is perfect, then he must be all the time. Thus, your exemple commits the fallacy of false equivocation and is a strawman. God has to be much better in all aspect than a human. We must hold him to higher standards of excellence and morality. Not lower and then finding excuses for him to justify his weaknesses. Like Descartes said and Spiderman popularise:«With great powers, come great responsabilities».

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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20-11-2015, 09:00 PM
RE: Judges 1
(20-11-2015 08:31 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 07:12 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Ok. So let's just say I told you not to play with the fire or else you will get burned. Am I responsible if you do? Did I cause you to get burned because you didn't listen to me?

Depends. Have you done all in your power to explain me the danger and the stupidity of my actions? Have you made use of different techniques when you realised I wasn't understanding or listenning? Were you convinced I would never do it? Could you have stopped me in a more direct fashion without putting yourself (or me) at risk of suffering equal or even superior problems? Were you there when the evenement happenned? Were you suppose to take care of me? Are you in a situation of much greater authority? Who and what are you supposed to be? A friend, a father, a protector, a lover, a teacher an ennemy, a passerby? Depending on your answers to those questions, the situation will be judged differently. In most cases, its safe to assume that we are both guilty. My punishment was to be burned. What's going to be yours?

PS: Need I remind you that humans cannot be hold to be perfect. Doing otherwise would be commiting a Nirvana fallacy. If God is perfect, then he must be all the time. Thus, your exemple commits the fallacy of false equivocation and is a strawman. God has to be much better in all aspect than a human. We must hold him to higher standards of excellence and morality. Not lower and then finding excuses for him to justify his weaknesses. Like Descartes said and Spiderman popularise:«With great powers, come great responsabilities».
Can you please explain this "Nirvana fallacy "? I an not familiar with it.
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