Just a thought.
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14-04-2013, 12:55 AM
RE: Just a thought.
I think we're not in Europa finding life because it's quite hard to drill that think layer of ice, and other technical difficulties. Basically we need more moneys to have more engineers making better machines to send there and do the job

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14-04-2013, 01:05 AM
RE: Just a thought.
(09-04-2013 06:36 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(09-04-2013 02:25 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Shitload of math and physics is my guess. I mean, that's like what I'm paying them to do. Unlike you. ... Fuckin' free loader. Tongue

Best thing about the US, I get all my military and astrological needs for free. Big Grin

Quote:The sun is pretty dim at that distance. There is also allot of radiation around Jupiter.

It would have to be a huge ass magnifying glass... Only it wouldn't be a magnifying glass but a large reflector that is extremely lightweight and foldable like aluminium foil. You have no idea of the scale. It would actually be more useful to leave it solid. Gives us something to land on. Melting one small area won't do the job anyway.

Europa would be extremely interesting to investigate. It's subsurface is believed to be liquid due to tidal heating. Imagine what the tides would be like if the surface was liquid as well!

Just to clarify, I was just joking about the giant magnifying glass... Tongue

Would it be possible though, to heat up a planet? and how would you do it?
My guess would be to cause a greenhouse effect by filling its atmosphere with co2, but that would be one hell of a engineering feet. Perhaps extract gas from Jupiter to put in Europa's atmosphere??

As for landing, wouldn't landing on water be easier then landing on land?
NASA land things in the ocean all the time right? They only land the shuttle on a run way because they re-use it. And a submarine wouldn't be all that different from whatever thing you sent on land anyway.

As for its tides, I believe (because I know it's true for another of Jupiter's moons so I assume Europa as well) they are caused by Jupiter.
There's another moon, closer I believe, that scientist think has LAND tides. The land bulges depending on what side is facing Jupiter.

Quote:No, we can't melt it; that would violate The Prime Directive.

I'm sorry to pop your bubble Chas but... this isn't Star Trek.

Crashing a good sized comet into Mars would heat it up....but then the dust kicked up might obscure the sunlight for a bit and make it colder than before.
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14-04-2013, 07:46 PM
RE: Just a thought.
Hey, Earmuffs.

I remember learning years ago that Jupiter was close to being a sun, but ultimately failed. Underachiever Cool If it had been a sun, we'd have a binary star system and the, well, EVERYTHING, would be different. Some of the planets might have been torn apart, ejected or swallowed whole. The habitable zone would be completely different. For all intents and purposes, it would be a solar system entirely different than our own.

The practice of heating up a planet/giving it an oxygen atmosphere is called terraforming.

As far as looking for life on Europa, I agree, we gotta get on that shit.... oh wait a minute.... NASAs got that one covered

We could try to make an atmosphere on Europa, but it's not likely. The reason the surface is frozen is because everything is frozen that far from the sun. The solar constant for earth is about 1 366.1 watts per square meter. The solar constant for Jupiter is about 50.5 W/m-2. So yeah, it's fucking cold out there.

Picture Europa like this, an ice cube with a small fire in the centre. That internal heat MAY cause a subterranean (sub ice sheet) ocean in which life may exist. We'd be better off making underwater domes inside that warm ocean than we'd be trying to make an atmosphere. Only problem? We'd all die from fucking rickets.





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14-04-2013, 08:25 PM
RE: Just a thought.
(14-04-2013 12:55 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I think we're not in Europa finding life because it's quite hard to drill that think layer of ice, and other technical difficulties. Basically we need more moneys to have more engineers making better machines to send there and do the job

Bit of salt chucked on the surface, she'll be right.

Quote:Crashing a good sized comet into Mars would heat it up....but then the dust kicked up might obscure the sunlight for a bit and make it colder than before.

Not much point in heating up Mars...

Quote:Hey, Earmuffs.

Hey, Ghost.

Quote:I remember learning years ago that Jupiter was close to being a sun, but ultimately failed. Underachiever Cool If it had been a sun, we'd have a binary star system and the, well, EVERYTHING, would be different. Some of the planets might have been torn apart, ejected or swallowed whole. The habitable zone would be completely different. For all intents and purposes, it would be a solar system entirely different than our own.

Would it though?
How would burning the gasses of Jupiter effect it's gravity? I thought the general principle was the larger the mass, the stronger the gravity.
I understand fusion as two atoms colliding and fusing together (with bits and pieces sent flying off on their own), but the total mass doesn't change.
ie: a 2 collides with a 2 to form a 3 and a 1. Total is still 4.

If anything I would have thought Jupiter would decrease in mass as it burns.
Hell, considering it's tiny size (compared to the sun), if it started burning around the same time as Earth was forming, would it even be around today?

Jupiter's big, but it's not that big. I don't think the solar system would be very different then it is today. Perhaps if Jupiter was dead by today we'd've lost our best defense against asteroids coming in from way out, but at the same time Jupiter also sometimes flings asteroids into the inner solar system, perhaps the asteroid that whipped out the dinosaurs may never have hit earth.
*shrugs*

Quote:The practice of heating up a planet/giving it an oxygen atmosphere is called terraforming.

Interesting.
If we had the capability and technology, then that certainly would be our best bet in colonizing off earth.
You'd still need to find the right planet though. One that has all the required elements, oxygen etc.. and has a strong magnetic field to protect from radiation.

Quote:As far as looking for life on Europa, I agree, we gotta get on that shit.... oh wait a minute.... NASAs got that one covered

Too much bloody focus on mars... Dodgy
It's a dying planet that use to have oceans and rivers. It's magnetic field is very shitty and likely because of Mar's dying magnetic field radiation baked the planet and caused the water to evaporate into the vastness of space.
Bam! That's Mars, now fuck that red shit hole and get to Europa! Angry

Quote:We could try to make an atmosphere on Europa, but it's not likely. The reason the surface is frozen is because everything is frozen that far from the sun. The solar constant for earth is about 1 366.1 watts per square meter. The solar constant for Jupiter is about 50.5 W/m-2. So yeah, it's fucking cold out there.
Picture Europa like this, an ice cube with a small fire in the centre. That internal heat MAY cause a subterranean (sub ice sheet) ocean in which life may exist. We'd be better off making underwater domes inside that warm ocean than we'd be trying to make an atmosphere. Only problem? We'd all die from fucking rickets.

Living under the ice... Now there's a thought.
The ice would protect from radiation. There's plenty of water..
Great opportunity to study life (if any) living in the water, and Jupiter and its other moons are a stones throw away.

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14-04-2013, 10:58 PM
RE: Just a thought.
I heard somewhere if Jupiter gained more mass it would actually get smaller. That for a gas giant, Jupiter is about as big as it gets. Any more mass and the atoms would get crushed together more resulting in increased density, though not enough to start fusion for quite a while.

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14-04-2013, 11:45 PM
RE: Just a thought.
Could the ice on Europa be thick enough to protect from radiation? If so, I wouldn't want to thaw it out until we discovered for sure there was no life there. So we don't fry it, and ruin some possible future habitat for ourselves. Is there any evidence of a magnetic field generated by a spinning iron core around Europa (or however else one might be generated, I have no clue)? As far as Jupiter becoming a sun, or if it had: How far is Mercury away from the sun? Would Europa, like Mercury, be too close to experience anything less than hundreds of degrees-high temperatures dayside? Whatever the answers, I want us exploring at least our own solar system bad! Find humanity a new home, and bar the nutjobs from soiling it. I need a new vacation destination Smile

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15-04-2013, 12:39 AM
RE: Just a thought.
(14-04-2013 10:58 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  I heard somewhere if Jupiter gained more mass it would actually get smaller. That for a gas giant, Jupiter is about as big as it gets. Any more mass and the atoms would get crushed together more resulting in increased density, though not enough to start fusion for quite a while.

Jupiter would actually be bigger if it were closer to the sun. Stars puff up gas giants.
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15-04-2013, 01:54 AM
RE: Just a thought.
(14-04-2013 11:45 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Could the ice on Europa be thick enough to protect from radiation? If so, I wouldn't want to thaw it out until we discovered for sure there was no life there. So we don't fry it, and ruin some possible future habitat for ourselves. Is there any evidence of a magnetic field generated by a spinning iron core around Europa (or however else one might be generated, I have no clue)? As far as Jupiter becoming a sun, or if it had: How far is Mercury away from the sun? Would Europa, like Mercury, be too close to experience anything less than hundreds of degrees-high temperatures dayside? Whatever the answers, I want us exploring at least our own solar system bad! Find humanity a new home, and bar the nutjobs from soiling it. I need a new vacation destination Smile

Considering Earth is warm and has plenty of space to stretch out, I vote we send the nut jobs to Europa, not us go there.

Europa might not need a magnetic field actually, Jupiter's is fucking huge, Europa might be close enough to Jupiter that Jupiter does all the hard work.

Quote: I heard somewhere if Jupiter gained more mass it would actually get smaller. That for a gas giant, Jupiter is about as big as it gets. Any more mass and the atoms would get crushed together more resulting in increased density, though not enough to start fusion for quite a while.

Interesting.

Decided to do a bit of reading.
They have a term for really large gas giants, 'brown dwarfs' (who names this shit?).
It's given to gas giants 13 times the size of Jupiter with an upper limit of 80 times the size of Jupiter (more guidelines then exact rules).
They're sort of a borderline category if you will between gas giant and star.
They are believed to have nuclear fusion reactions, like stars, but burn Deuterium (between 13 and 80 times the mass of Jupiter) or Lithium (brown dwarfs greater then 65 times the mass of Jupiter) instead of hydrogen.
This is apparently because Deuterium burns at very low temperatures (if 10,000 degrees is low...) where as hydrogen requires relatively much higher heat. (Which it would get if the brown dwarf was bigger and had more pressure).

It sounds like, to me, an intermediary phase between gas giant and star.
So on one end you'd have your small gas giants, and on the other end you'd have your stars. And depending on the size influences what that gas giant burns.
So.. in a way, stars are not stars, stars are just a sub-category of gas giants. Or gas giants are a sub-category of stars.
Hmmm, this has me thinking.

What if everything started off as a gas right. I know they say that the early universe was full of rock and gas and shit in a big dust cloud. BUT, what if before that, long before that at the very very very beginning, perhaps much longer back then we can imagine. All there was was the very basic element Hydrogen.
Due to gravity this formed up into a big ball of gas, and several smaller balls of gas. So much like our solar system now but with only hydrogen. (Thinking our solar system here) Everything must have been very spread out, perhaps several times the size of our solar system now.
Anyway, our sun, this giant ball of hydrogen then due to pressure started a nuclear fusion reaction. 2 Hydrogen fused to become helium and/or deuterium (2H, or 'heavy hydrogen'). This helium and/or deuterium is heavy and so it sinks into the core where more pressure is exuded upon it. The now heavier elements fuse, making lithium, this then sinks into the core because it's heavier etc.. Over time solid elements are formed, or at least elements that would be solid when cooled (the metals). Blah blah blah, this star then continues it's life until it gets to the end where it super novas. This then causes a new giant ball of gas, but now instead of just hydrogen, it's like 98% hydro, and 0.1% this that and the other... A new star forms. The process repeats, each time gaining more heavier things like helium and lithium and metals and such. I mean, our particular solar system, our gas cloud, could have formed a star and super nova-ed heaps of times before we got to this one, and this time is just another of it's cycle. Each time our solar system would get smaller as elements get heavier and more condensed which could explain solar systems expanding away from each other?? It would mean the universe would be a shit load older then 14billion. I know that that is how we get a lot of our elements and shit. BUT the difference is, science tells us, the big bang happened and then our solar system formed. Where I'm saying, our solar system formed, blew up, formed again, blew up, formed again, blew up etc.. I'm talking, 100's of billions of years, not 14.
*shrug*
I dunno, I think it would make a lot more sense then everything that ever will exist being crammed into an extremely tiny ball of energy and then exploding to become the universe...
It wouldn't explain where the hydrogen in the beginning came from, but nothing can so.. I think you need to go small to figure that one out.

I dunno, whatever.

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15-04-2013, 06:36 AM
RE: Just a thought.
Earmuffs having a thought? That belongs in the pseudoscience forum. Dodgy

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15-04-2013, 07:04 AM
RE: Just a thought.
(15-04-2013 06:36 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Earmuffs having a thought? That belongs in the pseudoscience forum. Dodgy
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