Just ask Jesus to enter your life...
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04-12-2014, 03:09 PM
RE: Just ask Jesus to enter your life...
(04-12-2014 12:09 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Second, the podcast seems very off to me. Send me a PM if you want to discuss the real, saving gospel. I'd be happy to do that, besides 1) putting you in touch with healing ministries with excellent track records of success and 2) seeing what I can do to help with the rest.

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04-12-2014, 03:10 PM
RE: Just ask Jesus to enter your life...
Repeating, etbonney, leaving the church - a church that preaches the Bible but doesn't really know the Bible - doesn't solve any serious medical or emotional challenges you face. I'd like to help or try to help.

Reltzik, I find your "don't go to him for help BECAUSE he's a believer" insulting, intolerant, inflammatory and ignorant. HOW DARE YOU tell a brother human who is hurting and needs help to stay away from someone who sincerely offers it. HOW DARE YOU.

There's a difference between not asking a church to fix your roof and telling someone who is seriously needing help with a real disorder NOT to get help from religious people! etbonney likely needs more than commiseration on a forum. What will you do to help? Probably nothing.

Repeating, et, this is the "help" you'll get here, unfortunately. I'm sure their are other atheists here who will REALLY help and show COMPASSION. But leaving Christianity and Jesus and the church are different choices. Please make the correct choice.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-12-2014, 04:12 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2014 06:52 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Just ask Jesus to enter your life...
(04-12-2014 03:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Repeating, etbonney, leaving the church - a church that preaches the Bible but doesn't really know the Bible - doesn't solve any serious medical or emotional challenges you face. I'd like to help or try to help.

Reltzik, I find your "don't go to him for help BECAUSE he's a believer" insulting, intolerant, inflammatory and ignorant. HOW DARE YOU tell a brother human who is hurting and needs help to stay away from someone who sincerely offers it. HOW DARE YOU.

There's a difference between not asking a church to fix your roof and telling someone who is seriously needing help with a real disorder NOT to get help from religious people! etbonney likely needs more than commiseration on a forum. What will you do to help? Probably nothing.

Repeating, et, this is the "help" you'll get here, unfortunately. I'm sure their are other atheists here who will REALLY help and show COMPASSION. But leaving Christianity and Jesus and the church are different choices. Please make the correct choice.

how DARE you offer a disingenuous, disproven, agenda based, delusional "helping hand" to another human being.

Faith isn't the answer to anything. Faith IS the delusion, belief without evidence. Faith is pretending to know things that you dont know. To say "I have faith in god" really means "I pretend to know things I don't know about god"....THINK about it, you dont know, you HOPE.

Your religious beliefs typically depend on the community in which you were raised or lived. The spiritual experiences of people in ancient greece, medieval japan or 21st century saudia arabia do not lead to belief in christianity. It seems, therefore, that religious belief very likely tracks not truth but social conditioning.

Faith is a failed epistemology. Showing why faith fails has been done before and done well. (Bering 2011, Harris 2004, Loftus 2010, 2013, McCormick 2012, Schick & Vaughn 2008, Shermer 1997, 2011, Smith 1979, STenger & Barker 2012, Torres 2012, Wade 2009 etc)

If a belief is based on insufficient evidence, than any further conclusion drawn from the belief will at best be of questionable value. This can not point one to the path of truth. Here are five points believers/non believers should be able to agree upon.

1) There are different faith traditions.
2) Different faith traditions make different truth claims.
3) The truth claims of some faith traditions contradict the truth claims of other faith traditions. For example, Muslims believe muhammad (570-632) was the last prophet (Sura 33:40). Mormons believe Joseph Smith (1805-1844), who lived after muhammad was a prophet.
4) It cannot both be the case that muhammad was the last prophet, and someone who lived after him was also a prophet.
5) Therefore: At LEAST one of these claims must be false....perhaps both....

it is impossible to figure out which of these claims is incorrect if the tool one uses is faith. As a tool, as an epistemology, as a method of reasoning, as a process for knowing the world, faith cannot adjudicate between competing claims. The ONLY way to figure out which claims about the world are likely true, and which are likely false, is through reason and evidence. There is no other way.

How dare you pretend to have answers, you only have delusions, a person in need of emotional support can get actual real tangible emotional support WITHOUT religion.

With reliable forms of reasoning comes the capability of crafting conditions that enable people to navigate life's obstacles. By using a more reliable form of reasoning, people are more capable of bringing about conditions that enable them to flourish.

To argue that people need faith is to abandon hope, and to condescend and accuse the faithful of being incapable of understanding the importance of reason and rationality. There are better and worse ways to come to terms with death, to find strength during times of personal crisis, to make meaning and purpose in our lives, to interpret our sense of awe and wonder, and to contribute to human well-being...and the faithful are completely capable of understanding and achieving this..if they would only try....but the faithful cannot and should not offer religion as an answer for ANYTHING. Would you throw a drowning man a rope and life ring (reason and logic) or an anchor and a blindfold (religion)?

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-12-2014, 06:14 PM
RE: Just ask Jesus to enter your life...
(04-12-2014 03:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Repeating, etbonney, leaving the church - a church that preaches the Bible but doesn't really know the Bible - doesn't solve any serious medical or emotional challenges you face. I'd like to help or try to help.

Reltzik, I find your "don't go to him for help BECAUSE he's a believer" insulting, intolerant, inflammatory and ignorant. HOW DARE YOU tell a brother human who is hurting and needs help to stay away from someone who sincerely offers it. HOW DARE YOU.

There's a difference between not asking a church to fix your roof and telling someone who is seriously needing help with a real disorder NOT to get help from religious people! etbonney likely needs more than commiseration on a forum. What will you do to help? Probably nothing.

Repeating, et, this is the "help" you'll get here, unfortunately. I'm sure their are other atheists here who will REALLY help and show COMPASSION. But leaving Christianity and Jesus and the church are different choices. Please make the correct choice.

I promised not to engage, and now I'm breaking the promise, for this one post. I will go back to not engaging on the subject after it.

How do I dare to tell him to stay away from someone who sincerely offers it? Because that someone who sincerely offers it doesn't actually have it to offer. He BELIEVES he has it to offer. He is making that offer sincerely. But I'm convinced that it will more likely make things worse.

I would offer the same advice to someone returning to a domestic abuser. Do. Not. Go. To. Him. Even if he says he won't be the same. Even if he genuinely thinks he won't be the same. Even if there's a chance that he actually won't be the same. It's not worth the risk. Especially not when the OP seems to have already found something that is working for him.

This is not, in this case, JUST because he's a believer. If KC (an old boardie Calvinist who's not around any more, but probably will be again, because he's trying to rack up a higher count of retirements than Cher) were here making that sort of offer, I'd be just fine with it. Approve, even. I can even think of some ministers that I know IRL (and I don't know many) who I would outright endorse, if they made that kind of offer.

The difference is that those ministers actually give enough of a damn to make sure they're getting good results. They know that means checking expectations against reality, faith against facts. To them, helping comes first, and the apologetic tap dance second, and if that means setting aside the parts of their faith that harms people so that they might help them, that's what they'll do. If that means examining their faith under a microscope to proactively identify what is harmful and discarding that, that's what they'll do, because they give a damn about helping people, and that's the price of helping people. In his time here, Q has not demonstrated that kind of integrity or humanity. If anything, he has demonstrated an aversion or incapacity (the two can be hard to tell apart sometimes) for that sort of examination, especially if the cost of that examination is not pushing some recalcitrant soul towards his religion. However sincere he might or might not be in his intent, this is not a man to trust one's sanity to. It is for that reason -- not because he is a believer, and not because I wish to deny anyone genuinely useful assistance -- that I issued my warning. Others here can testify that it is very out of character for me, that normally I robustly and civilly engage rather than flatly and uncivilly disengage. It is only the high stakes in this case that drove me to do otherwise.

If Q DOES have evidence that his ministerial programs work, by all means, let's get the independent peer-reviewed studies posted here for all to see... including the scientists on the board who can understand them and distinguish real evidence from malarkey. Seeing a faith-based mental health program which is actually confirmed to work better than secular psychology would be a novelty, at least, and I would be both robust and genuine in my apology to both Q and the OP if Q could (for once) offer good evidence. But since that's not going to happen, I will repeat my advice. The OP should be alert and skeptical when Q offers a religious fix, especially to something that appears to be under control with present methods, and for which religious fixes have failed multiple times in the past. I suspect the OP already knows this, but again, what's at stake makes it important to be sure.

Also, the "he's suffering, let's convert him now in his moment of weakness!" vultures really piss me off.
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04-12-2014, 07:02 PM
RE: Just ask Jesus to enter your life...
Jesus is like a vampire...you have to invite him in, then he'll suck you dry and turn you into a lifeless blood drinking feind.
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04-12-2014, 07:48 PM
RE: Just ask Jesus to enter your life...
(04-12-2014 06:14 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 03:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Reltzik, I find your "don't go to him for help BECAUSE he's a believer" insulting, intolerant, inflammatory and ignorant. HOW DARE YOU tell a brother human who is hurting and needs help to stay away from someone who sincerely offers it. HOW DARE YOU.

Oh my, the things I see in quote boxes. And what a solid reminder of why you're on my ignore list.

When somebody claims to feel hurt and betrayed by religion, you should hold off from offering to heal them with... religion. How dare you be so oblivious to the OP's pain. That's an obvious courtesy for anyone who's suffered a traumatic experience.

You ARE qualified to deal with mental health and trauma, yes?

I know, it takes patience and restraint to not come in guns blazing. However, you need to practice both. I'm sure that was simply a slip on your part. Also, it's inrcredibly arrogant to discredit what were most likely the sincere efforts of other Christians with a wave of your hand. Again, probably just a slip on your part.

If you're going to offer solutions, beyond sympathy, to what appear to be mental health problems, it would be reasonable to expect you to post your credentials. No, I'm not referring to your incredible 100%, unverifiable, success record in faith healing. Actual, verifiable, credentials that show you are qualified to offer more than just sympathy. Things that must be earned in the real world and verified by professional peers.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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04-12-2014, 09:10 PM
RE: Just ask Jesus to enter your life...
Let me list the people I don't have to invite into my life that help me out of the goodness of their hearts.

Complete strangers who don't know me.
People that do know me.

It looks like a short list, but it's really quite long.

Do you know who helps me when those people aren't around ?
Just me

There are a certain number of people who slip and fall in the shower each year and die. They die because no one is there to help. Let me repeat that. There is no one there to help.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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05-12-2014, 12:25 PM
RE: Just ask Jesus to enter your life...
All,

I'm offering WHATEVER et needs, including financial help or access to 100% cost-free, secular mental counseling if the networks I work with have it in his area of the world.

What I disapproved of is someone saying "don't talk to Q, listen to us anonymous avatars on this impersonal forum for help".

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post to say I am ONLY offering prayer or other "spiritual" help. Most of you responded to et as if everything would be better because he left that mean 'ole church and has come to the glorious light of atheism. That might help with, say, feelings of guilt over religious misdeeds, but not provide the emotional and psychological counseling it sounds like et might need.

What also SUCKS is what was in the first response to my post, as if et received financial or psychological help to improve his life and alleviate depression or ease bipolar systems, etc. while -- Lord forbid -- re-deconverting his faith, that would be AWFUL. Yes, what a TRAGEDY if someone should dare lapse back into theism while getting their life together. I'm sure no one meant to post that but it was sort of implied... I mean, I personally understand that Christian people in rebellion AND/OR those undergoing stress in a variety of situations would be atheist and so on. But I'd rather some person left the church for a while, or for ever, than dealt with untreated bipolar disease or harmed themselves, etc.

GROW UP and see the bigger picture, people. Some of you are going straight to Heaven when you die even though you have chosen at this time to be atheists. See the bigger picture, please.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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05-12-2014, 12:44 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2014 12:50 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Just ask Jesus to enter your life...
Q

Quote:I'm offering WHATEVER et needs, including financial help or access to 100% cost-free, secular mental counseling if the networks I work with have it in his area of the world.

What I disapproved of is someone saying "don't talk to Q, listen to us anonymous avatars on this impersonal forum for help".

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post to say I am ONLY offering prayer or other "spiritual" help. Most of you responded to et as if everything would be better because he left that mean 'ole church and has come to the glorious light of atheism. That might help with, say, feelings of guilt over religious misdeeds, but not provide the emotional and psychological counseling it sounds like et might need.

and you are implying that religion can provide said emotional support WITHOUT squeezing faith into it? I doubt it. One of my collateral duties in the Navy is I am an ASSIST certified counselor (advanced suicidal ideation counselor) and I am the only atheist that is certified at that level as an officer, the others are chaplains, and it is literally impossible for them to get a sentence out without swinging it towards the faith. I am not saying it is impossible that a faith based person can't help without serving up jesus, but in my vast experience with the church and its followers, any help offered has an agenda tied to it...like the picture here:

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Quote:
What also SUCKS is what was in the first response to my post, as if et received financial or psychological help to improve his life and alleviate depression or ease bipolar systems, etc. while -- Lord forbid -- re-deconverting his faith, that would be AWFUL. Yes, what a TRAGEDY if someone should dare lapse back into theism while getting their life together.


That would be a tragedy, to slip back into delusion in your moment of weakness is an awful fate for someone who at some point knew it was all BS.

Quote: I'd rather some person left the church for a while, or for ever, than dealt with untreated bipolar disease or harmed themselves, etc.

I agree, and religion is not the cure, nor the answer to anything. Religion is only useful to subjugate someone, to control someone, to skew someone's natural ability to comprehend the world around them based on reality, reason and logic, not the "drink the kool aid" and then AFTER you die = paradise BS fairy tale as a solution for anything.

Quote:GROW UP and see the bigger picture, people. Some of you are going straight to Heaven when you die even though you have chosen at this time to be atheists. See the bigger picture, please.

Grow up? You believe in fairy tales, based on a book riddled with Fiction, Forgery and Fantasy, that purports a super genie floating in nothingness created hundreds of billions of planets, until he got one juuuuust right, then grabbed a handful of dirt and blew into and *gasp* created man, gave him "free will" with the eternal slavery clause of believe in me or spend eternity in hell, yeah cause THAT isn't a biased ultimatum....and you truly believe this BS and you say to us...grow up? How about you fucking grow up and pull your head out of fantasy land and join the real world....the world where zombie saviors, dragons and fairies don't exist, but it is still a pretty nice place to live....

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-12-2014, 01:08 PM
RE: Just ask Jesus to enter your life...
(05-12-2014 12:44 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
Quote:I'm offering WHATEVER et needs, including financial help or access to 100% cost-free, secular mental counseling if the networks I work with have it in his area of the world.

What I disapproved of is someone saying "don't talk to Q, listen to us anonymous avatars on this impersonal forum for help".

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post to say I am ONLY offering prayer or other "spiritual" help. Most of you responded to et as if everything would be better because he left that mean 'ole church and has come to the glorious light of atheism. That might help with, say, feelings of guilt over religious misdeeds, but not provide the emotional and psychological counseling it sounds like et might need.

GROW UP and see the bigger picture, people. Some of you are going straight to Heaven when you die even though you have chosen at this time to be atheists. See the bigger picture, please.

Completely misses the point. When someone has been traumatized by drowning, you don't offer to put them right back into a swimming pool. I went back and unblocked your original post. You truly lack sensitivity to the OP's situation:

Quote:First, I am sincerely sorry for all that has befallen you. You have indeed certainly suffered through some terrible trials.

Nothing wrong here. In fact, it's a great place to end your post. But you caaaaaaan't...

Quote:Second, I'm also sorry you fell in with a church that promised you healing without being able to heal you (the Bible says false teachers are like clouds that promise wonderful rain but there is no precipitation--Jude) which was also a church that offered you prayer and miracles but it (sounds like) no real help for real, important needs (James talks about not just telling people "be warm and comfortable" but making people warm and comfortable and loved and everything else).

The bible says... the bible says... the bible says... do you not think the OP has heard this before? What sort of emotional response will this sort of comment invoke in someone so angry with religion? Happiness, relief? I don't think so. Very poor choice of words.

Quote:Second, the podcast seems very off to me. Send me a PM if you want to discuss the real, saving gospel. I'd be happy to do that, besides 1) putting you in touch with healing ministries with excellent track records of success and

Wow... the "real" Gospel, and hey, some MORE ministries... in addition to the numerous ones attended by the OP. You're really, really insensitive to the nature of his situation.

Quote:2) seeing what I can do to help with the rest.

So these last ten words involve the "non-religious" help. The rest of the post is dripping with religion. You just can't tone down the Jesus-speak. Not even for someone who's been hurt by religion. Not even for one freaking post.

"Hey, I'd like to offer some assistance. I'm qualified (are you?) to offer resources for mental health treatment. If you're interested, PM me." - this would be much more effective.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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