Just some thoughts.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-03-2013, 04:51 PM
RE: Just some thoughts.
(07-03-2013 04:29 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 04:23 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  What if God was proven to exist, and he came to you, telling you to kill your children?
Easy.

God exists and is talking to me (I'll assume I have no reason to believe I'm crazy, or at least no way to tell if I am). Therefore, if I obey I go to heaven but if I disobey I go to hell. Furthermore, killing my children sends them to heaven too, unless they have behaved in such a way as to deserve hell - but even then, they're going to be in hell for eternity, so sending them there a few years early won't even be the tiniest tip of the largest iceberg of the time they'll spend there so they won't really notice the difference and, well, they deserved it anyway.

They die.
This might be the rational thing to do, but the love I have for my children would probably induce me to behave irrationally.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-03-2013, 04:55 PM
RE: Just some thoughts.
(07-03-2013 03:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  However I have heard atheists claim that even if it could be proved that the god of the bible exists, they would still not worship such a god because that god is a jerk. I've always thought that claim was silly, It would be ridiculous for an atheist to be willing to spend an eternity in hell just to drive home the point that he disagrees with gods values.
I'm one of those atheists that would not worship the god of the bible if it could be proven that he exists. It's not about making a point, it's about moral standards. In the same way that I wouldn't kill an innocent person even if it would save my own life, I wouldn't give eternal praise to a being that is guilty of horrible atrocities just to save my hide. Doing so would just be a different hell.

Think about it in reverse. Would you worship Satan if you could be 100% sure you were going to hell and he would relieve all your hell pain if you worship him?

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-03-2013, 05:02 PM
RE: Just some thoughts.
Id (be forced) to believe in god if my neighbours were slaughtered and tortured, just like how christianity was spread all over the world (along with many other religions)

People forget that, it wasn't a freedom of choice, people were FORCED to believe this shit. Their old gods and temples were destroyed and anybody found worshipping them was killed.

Unless I have my history wrong???

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-03-2013, 05:13 PM
RE: Just some thoughts.




Amen... thats me done in this thread.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-03-2013, 05:17 PM
RE: Just some thoughts.
(07-03-2013 04:23 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  What if God was proven to exist, and he came to you, telling you to kill your children?
I would ask him why he was running out of new material so fast.

[Image: 3d366d5c-72a0-4228-b835-f404c2970188_zps...1381867723]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-03-2013, 05:27 PM
RE: Just some thoughts.
(07-03-2013 05:17 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 04:23 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  What if God was proven to exist, and he came to you, telling you to kill your children?
I would ask him why he was running out of new material so fast.


Oooooh, you goina helllll....
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes WeAreTheCosmos's post
07-03-2013, 05:45 PM
RE: Just some thoughts.
(07-03-2013 05:27 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 05:17 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  I would ask him why he was running out of new material so fast.


Oooooh, you goina helllll....
Really? I guess I'll ask to be the janitor down there. Sure, it's a messy job cleaning up burnt husks and keeping soot levels down to an acceptable level, but at least I can apply for benefits given time.

[Image: 3d366d5c-72a0-4228-b835-f404c2970188_zps...1381867723]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2013, 01:13 AM
RE: Just some thoughts.
(07-03-2013 05:45 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 05:27 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Oooooh, you goina helllll....
Really? I guess I'll ask to be the janitor down there. Sure, it's a messy job cleaning up burnt husks and keeping soot levels down to an acceptable level, but at least I can apply for benefits given time.

I lay claim to the toilets, CheapTrick. Big Grin I really can't appreciate why Christians so readily and willingly and unquestionably accept that an eternity of bliss is obviously preferable to an eternity of torment. Both feel equally tortuous to me. Heaven sounds like an opium den where we continually sing hosannahs in order to get our next hit. Only thing I can imagine feeling in heaven is stupor or boredom. At least in hell I'd get to feel something real. Not only that, given enough time I imagine I'd learn to enjoy the torment in a Myth of Sisyphus sorta way.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2013, 01:22 AM
RE: Just some thoughts.
(07-03-2013 04:51 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 04:29 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  Easy.

God exists and is talking to me (I'll assume I have no reason to believe I'm crazy, or at least no way to tell if I am). Therefore, if I obey I go to heaven but if I disobey I go to hell. Furthermore, killing my children sends them to heaven too, unless they have behaved in such a way as to deserve hell - but even then, they're going to be in hell for eternity, so sending them there a few years early won't even be the tiniest tip of the largest iceberg of the time they'll spend there so they won't really notice the difference and, well, they deserved it anyway.

They die.
This might be the rational thing to do, but the love I have for my children would probably induce me to behave irrationally.
That is both very Christian, and very un-Christian of you, and I submit that it reveals the very real doubts you have about the existence of God - if you truly believed, 100%, free of all doubt, then you'd understand that him telling you to kill your children is part of his plan for all of you and defying that plan is the greatest sin you could commit (denying his plan is tantamount to denying his existence).

What's happening here is you're imagining this hypothetical world with a proved god to be exactly like the real world where you assume the unproved god is real. So you project the same behavior in the hypothetical world that you would have in the real world. In the real world, you would irrationally defy god. Nobody who really, truly, knows that god is real would ever do that, especially if all the rest of the bible junk is KNOWN to be real, such as heaven, hell, salvation, eternal reward, eternal damnation. If all of that is real, and KNOWN to be real, nobody would defy god. Ever. Doubly-especially since you would really be doing your children a favor, getting them to heaven much faster than they would otherwise get there. Everybody wins.

But you don't see it that way because you're projecting this world into the hypothetical one. In this world, you have doubts. You might irrationally let your love for your children override your rational obedience to god because you are not sure that blind obedience to a god about which you have doubts, about whose existence you are uncertain, is justified.

Congratulations, you've taken the first step: realizing you are not as sure of the justification for your irrational faith as you thought you were.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2013, 01:30 AM
RE: Just some thoughts.
(07-03-2013 04:35 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 04:29 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  Easy.

God exists and is talking to me (I'll assume I have no reason to believe I'm crazy, or at least no way to tell if I am). Therefore, if I obey I go to heaven but if I disobey I go to hell. Furthermore, killing my children sends them to heaven too, unless they have behaved in such a way as to deserve hell - but even then, they're going to be in hell for eternity, so sending them there a few years early won't even be the tiniest tip of the largest iceberg of the time they'll spend there so they won't really notice the difference and, well, they deserved it anyway.

They die.
I'll make this even easier for you. If you're referring to the God of the Bible... as written in scripture... then 1) He would never ask this of you or 2) if He did, He would stop you before you did it.

There is nothing to worry about.
How can you be so sure? He asked it of Abraham. Why can you be so sure he wouldn't ask it of anyone else?

Don't tell me he was testing Abraham's faith - god is omniscient, he knew how faithful Abraham was, he knew the outcome of the test. Sure, Abe had freewill to do it or defy god, but omniscient god already knew which choice Abe was going to make.

I think he was just being a great big omniscient dick and fucking with poor Abraham (and with Isaac too, come to think of it).

So what's to stop god from doing that again?

Or did you mean that he would never ask it of ME because he knows I don't have any faith in him? If so, then you missed the premise; we're speaking of a hypothetical alternate reality where god is real, it's a known, proven fact. Since I hypothetically exist in this hypothetical place, I know god is real, so I believe in him unequivocally. My belief wouldn't be a matter of faith but of evidence. It wouldn't need to be tested because in this scenario, I would be chatting with god and getting directives from him - just like Abraham did.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: