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23-06-2017, 05:59 AM
Justice
Some policemen, fueled by racial and skin-deep dislikes, do injustices and kill innocent citizens. How to stop this madness?
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23-06-2017, 06:13 AM
RE: Justice
The police make up a very small group of the overall population.

All the faults found in society are going to be found within the police.

The 'fix' has to be much more global than just trying to fix one segment of the population.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat

Are my Chakras on straight?
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23-06-2017, 06:17 AM
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 05:59 AM)Thinker Wrote:  Some policemen, fueled by racial and skin-deep dislikes, do injustices and kill innocent citizens. How to stop this madness?

Drone strikes.

Seems to be working in e.g. Afghanistan so if it's good enough as foreign policy, no reason why it shouldn't work for domestic policy.

Thumbsup

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23-06-2017, 06:31 AM
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 05:59 AM)Thinker Wrote:  Some policemen, fueled by racial and skin-deep dislikes, do injustices and kill innocent citizens. How to stop this madness?

Better training (especially in communication skills), body cameras, and more of a "first do no harm" mentality. We can afford to let some people go in ambiguous situations, if the alternatives are such killings.
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23-06-2017, 06:34 AM
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 05:59 AM)Thinker Wrote:  Some policemen, fueled by racial and skin-deep dislikes, do injustices and kill innocent citizens. How to stop this madness?

I think the question is much broader than the one you posed. Working for the largest FD in the state, I work on our state's only fully staffed Haz Mat Unit and we also work closely with the Bomb Squad so we cross paths with our local Police Dept. most everyday. We train with our local Police Dept often. And even though I work in the South where racial tensions are still (regrettably) an issue down here I must say that our Police Dept. is extremely professional with how they conduct themselves. That's not to say that there couldn't be a few on the Dept that fall into the category that you described above. I'm sure most every Dept. in the nation falls into that category to some degree.

This is my "personal" opinion of the issue that you bring up. There is, and maybe always will be, an issue when race is a factor to some people. We have moved a long way from where we as a country came from but we have a long way to go with race relations. When speaking for the Law Enforcement side of the equation, I firmly believe that the vast majority of Law Enforcement Officers on the street every day are good people and go to their job with the intent of doing the right thing and protecting the public that they serve. It's the few that hold the views that you describe that becomes an issue and makes every other officer in the field look bad. As the saying goes, "it only takes a few bad apples". So because of the action of a few the rest of the loyal officers take a black eye because of it.

I certainly won't deny there is an issue as you describe because there is and I agree with you. Some places are worse than others at bringing this issue to light. But the vast majority of officers in this nation truly want to do their job to the best of their ability.

Now... as far as far as your question on "how to stop the madness?" I really wish I knew the answer to that. Hopefully as time moves forward race will no longer be an issue. That is my wish as race should never be a determining factor in any aspect of our lives. We are all human beings and everyone (as long as you are doing no harm to another) deserves the same amount of respect.

I get to decide what my life looks like, not the other way around.
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23-06-2017, 07:13 AM
RE: Justice
"Justice is a human fiction."
Robert Heinlein (paraphrased), Job: A Comedy of Justice

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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23-06-2017, 07:36 AM
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 06:34 AM)RearViewMirror Wrote:  
(23-06-2017 05:59 AM)Thinker Wrote:  Some policemen, fueled by racial and skin-deep dislikes, do injustices and kill innocent citizens. How to stop this madness?

I think the question is much broader than the one you posed. Working for the largest FD in the state, I work on our state's only fully staffed Haz Mat Unit and we also work closely with the Bomb Squad so we cross paths with our local Police Dept. most everyday. We train with our local Police Dept often. And even though I work in the South where racial tensions are still (regrettably) an issue down here I must say that our Police Dept. is extremely professional with how they conduct themselves. That's not to say that there couldn't be a few on the Dept that fall into the category that you described above. I'm sure most every Dept. in the nation falls into that category to some degree.

This is my "personal" opinion of the issue that you bring up. There is, and maybe always will be, an issue when race is a factor to some people. We have moved a long way from where we as a country came from but we have a long way to go with race relations. When speaking for the Law Enforcement side of the equation, I firmly believe that the vast majority of Law Enforcement Officers on the street every day are good people and go to their job with the intent of doing the right thing and protecting the public that they serve. It's the few that hold the views that you describe that becomes an issue and makes every other officer in the field look bad. As the saying goes, "it only takes a few bad apples". So because of the action of a few the rest of the loyal officers take a black eye because of it.

I certainly won't deny there is an issue as you describe because there is and I agree with you. Some places are worse than others at bringing this issue to light. But the vast majority of officers in this nation truly want to do their job to the best of their ability.

Now... as far as far as your question on "how to stop the madness?" I really wish I knew the answer to that. Hopefully as time moves forward race will no longer be an issue. That is my wish as race should never be a determining factor in any aspect of our lives. We are all human beings and everyone (as long as you are doing no harm to another) deserves the same amount of respect.

As a lifelong Southerner, I have observed upon moving to the MidWest that active racism is in many ways more rampant up here than it was in the deep South. Unfortunately, many of the institutions of structural racism still exist in the South, due to the overt racists who (not that long ago in history) were still standing in the schoolhouse door and making policies/laws that reflected their active racism, and we just haven't been able to admit the problem and clean up the damage. I wouldn't say the South, today, is more racist than the rest of the country, and in many ways is less so, at least on the active scale. Structural racism remains a problem-- one of the major problems being that the people most likely to be benefiting from structural racism are the ones most likely to pretend it doesn't exist because they know that they themselves do not feel racist toward people of different skin colors. That's because it's not really about race, anymore... I'll get to that in a bit.

If you'll look at most police forces, you find that most of them are full of well-intentioned men and women who do not actually feel any sort of racism. However, they are often driven by policies from above that still reflect the structural racist outlook of the past-- and more importantly, they are forced to deal with the dangers that come from the (quite predictable) outcomes of the structural racist policies that deliberately removed or failed to offer the infrastructure, education, lending, and other support to predominantly minority communities that were given to predominantly white communities-- leaving entire generations behind as white neighborhoods were lifted out of poverty and into the Middle Class. In other words, they deliberately left whole swaths of the country to rot, and as a result of that generational poverty and desperation, we see (quite predictable) higher rates of crime and violence in the rotted communities.

Worse, the police were openly used to keep those rotted communities repressed. This was recently admitted to be the basis of Nixon's "War on Drugs" policies by one of Nixon's top advisers, his domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman. Quote:

"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."

Nixon was also targeting the "counterculture", such as the Hippies, and everyone else who was trying to revolutionize our society. So it wasn't entirely about race, but about suppressing those who were dissatisfied with the hyper-Captialist vision that Nixon helped to put into place-- that's why most of today's problems with our country's economy, the rise of the 1% at the expense of the rest of us and the propaganda that supported it ("What do you mean, stop the drug war? Are you pro-CRIMINAL!?!"), can be traced to the Nixon era.

Add to this the phenomenon of "white flight" that emerged, as people fled from the rotting areas to ones that had been improved (out of the city centers, mainly), and you wound up with a new type of segregation, and the police were not only employed to suppress the communities, but to harrass those who ventured outside of "their areas" and into the new white (really, wealthier) havens.

Forced to serve as proxies for this class warfare against the poor, police are often put in compromised positions and are well aware that they may be retaliated against by people who are frustrated after literally generations of abuse by the agents of the system... this leads police to be "jumpy", and leads to mistakes of the sort we saw with the murder of what may have been one of the best human beings in the United States, Philando Castile. And many, many others, of course.

Worse, and exacerbating the problem, is that people intuitively "get it", even if they don't admit that they do... which leads to police being acquitted of violence against minority Americans if there is even the most remote chance that the cop was afraid for their lives, even when it's obviously baseless, as in Mr. Castile's case.

I know that I would never volunteer to work as an officer, as long as the US policy retains the shadow of our racist and classist past.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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23-06-2017, 08:47 AM
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 07:36 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(23-06-2017 06:34 AM)RearViewMirror Wrote:  I think the question is much broader than the one you posed. Working for the largest FD in the state, I work on our state's only fully staffed Haz Mat Unit and we also work closely with the Bomb Squad so we cross paths with our local Police Dept. most everyday. We train with our local Police Dept often. And even though I work in the South where racial tensions are still (regrettably) an issue down here I must say that our Police Dept. is extremely professional with how they conduct themselves. That's not to say that there couldn't be a few on the Dept that fall into the category that you described above. I'm sure most every Dept. in the nation falls into that category to some degree.

This is my "personal" opinion of the issue that you bring up. There is, and maybe always will be, an issue when race is a factor to some people. We have moved a long way from where we as a country came from but we have a long way to go with race relations. When speaking for the Law Enforcement side of the equation, I firmly believe that the vast majority of Law Enforcement Officers on the street every day are good people and go to their job with the intent of doing the right thing and protecting the public that they serve. It's the few that hold the views that you describe that becomes an issue and makes every other officer in the field look bad. As the saying goes, "it only takes a few bad apples". So because of the action of a few the rest of the loyal officers take a black eye because of it.

I certainly won't deny there is an issue as you describe because there is and I agree with you. Some places are worse than others at bringing this issue to light. But the vast majority of officers in this nation truly want to do their job to the best of their ability.

Now... as far as far as your question on "how to stop the madness?" I really wish I knew the answer to that. Hopefully as time moves forward race will no longer be an issue. That is my wish as race should never be a determining factor in any aspect of our lives. We are all human beings and everyone (as long as you are doing no harm to another) deserves the same amount of respect.

As a lifelong Southerner, I have observed upon moving to the MidWest that active racism is in many ways more rampant up here than it was in the deep South. Unfortunately, many of the institutions of structural racism still exist in the South, due to the overt racists who (not that long ago in history) were still standing in the schoolhouse door and making policies/laws that reflected their active racism, and we just haven't been able to admit the problem and clean up the damage. I wouldn't say the South, today, is more racist than the rest of the country, and in many ways is less so, at least on the active scale. Structural racism remains a problem-- one of the major problems being that the people most likely to be benefiting from structural racism are the ones most likely to pretend it doesn't exist because they know that they themselves do not feel racist toward people of different skin colors. That's because it's not really about race, anymore... I'll get to that in a bit.

If you'll look at most police forces, you find that most of them are full of well-intentioned men and women who do not actually feel any sort of racism. However, they are often driven by policies from above that still reflect the structural racist outlook of the past-- and more importantly, they are forced to deal with the dangers that come from the (quite predictable) outcomes of the structural racist policies that deliberately removed or failed to offer the infrastructure, education, lending, and other support to predominantly minority communities that were given to predominantly white communities-- leaving entire generations behind as white neighborhoods were lifted out of poverty and into the Middle Class. In other words, they deliberately left whole swaths of the country to rot, and as a result of that generational poverty and desperation, we see (quite predictable) higher rates of crime and violence in the rotted communities.

Worse, the police were openly used to keep those rotted communities repressed. This was recently admitted to be the basis of Nixon's "War on Drugs" policies by one of Nixon's top advisers, his domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman. Quote:

"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."

Nixon was also targeting the "counterculture", such as the Hippies, and everyone else who was trying to revolutionize our society. So it wasn't entirely about race, but about suppressing those who were dissatisfied with the hyper-Captialist vision that Nixon helped to put into place-- that's why most of today's problems with our country's economy, the rise of the 1% at the expense of the rest of us and the propaganda that supported it ("What do you mean, stop the drug war? Are you pro-CRIMINAL!?!"), can be traced to the Nixon era.

Add to this the phenomenon of "white flight" that emerged, as people fled from the rotting areas to ones that had been improved (out of the city centers, mainly), and you wound up with a new type of segregation, and the police were not only employed to suppress the communities, but to harrass those who ventured outside of "their areas" and into the new white (really, wealthier) havens.

Forced to serve as proxies for this class warfare against the poor, police are often put in compromised positions and are well aware that they may be retaliated against by people who are frustrated after literally generations of abuse by the agents of the system... this leads police to be "jumpy", and leads to mistakes of the sort we saw with the murder of what may have been one of the best human beings in the United States, Philando Castile. And many, many others, of course.

Worse, and exacerbating the problem, is that people intuitively "get it", even if they don't admit that they do... which leads to police being acquitted of violence against minority Americans if there is even the most remote chance that the cop was afraid for their lives, even when it's obviously baseless, as in Mr. Castile's case.

I know that I would never volunteer to work as an officer, as long as the US policy retains the shadow of our racist and classist past.

Well said. Thumbsup

I get to decide what my life looks like, not the other way around.
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23-06-2017, 09:45 AM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2017 09:50 AM by Lord Dark Helmet.)
RE: Justice
The problem isn't bad people becoming cops (although there are a few). The problem isn't racism (although there are a few).

The problem is TRAINING. I can speak from first hand experience. There are two kinds of cops. Instinctual cops and trained cops. Trained cops are the worst. They rely to much on the things they have been force fed, the extreme is all they can accomplish in any situation. A good cop can judge a situation, pick up on real dangers and adjust accordingly on the fly using gut instinct.

If you were to follow a cops training from the academy, into FATS training and live person scenario training, you will see a common theme. STAYING ALIVE.

You see, somewhere along the line, after too many police deaths in the line of duty, they started overtraining. They beat into our heads that our goal is to go home every night. We are repeatedly told "its better to be judged by 9 than carried by 6." I like to call it boogeyman training. To a novice cop without gut instinct, every person is a threat, every traffic stop is a potential death trap. See a gun? SHOOT! See a knife? SHOOT! Suspect reaches into his pocket and you didn't tell him to? HE MIGHT BE REACHING FOR A GUN! SHOOT!

I remember an incident up in Seattle, where a native American homeless man used to carve little totem poles and other things from wood and sell them on the street corner. He was deaf. One day an officer was approaching him. The officer saw the wood carving knife and told him to drop it, but being deaf of course he didn't hear shit. He didn't make any aggressive movements towards the officer. He just stood there with his carving knife. He had no idea the cop yelled "drop the knife." So what does the cop do? He shoots him. Kills him. Dead. That's a cop that follows his training to the letter. And guess what? NO CHARGES. Because the cop felt threatened by the knife and the guy didn't drop it when ordered. No jury would convict because under Washington state law a prosecutor must prove MALICE to garner a conviction in a police shooting. No cop has ever been convicted in Washington state since the malice law went into effect and only a few ever made it to trial.

I no longer work in law enforcement, and this subject is one of the reasons I left. It's not that the police are filled with bad people that want to kill, it's just they're half filled with people that shouldn't be cops. They are good people that are in over their head because they lack the instinct, awareness and street smarts to do the job.

I don't want to turn this into a gun debate but you all know my stance on the 2nd amendment. Good people have a right to carry guns in this country (in most jurisdictions). Dumb cops that rely only on training are a threat to legal concealed carry as we saw in the Philando Castile case. Good guy with a gun permit tells the cop he has a gun and a permit and the cop kills him because he instantly added together robbery suspect+gun+black guy = imminent threat. He saw a boogeyman and he couldn't turn back. His training programmed him to react so he could go home safe.

It's insanity.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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23-06-2017, 10:18 AM
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 09:45 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  The problem isn't bad people becoming cops (although there are a few). The problem isn't racism (although there are a few).

The problem is TRAINING. I can speak from first hand experience. There are two kinds of cops. Instinctual cops and trained cops. Trained cops are the worst. They rely to much on the things they have been force fed, the extreme is all they can accomplish in any situation. A good cop can judge a situation, pick up on real dangers and adjust accordingly on the fly using gut instinct.

If you were to follow a cops training from the academy, into FATS training and live person scenario training, you will see a common theme. STAYING ALIVE.

You see, somewhere along the line, after too many police deaths in the line of duty, they started overtraining. They beat into our heads that our goal is to go home every night. We are repeatedly told "its better to be judged by 9 than carried by 6." I like to call it boogeyman training. To a novice cop without gut instinct, every person is a threat, every traffic stop is a potential death trap. See a gun? SHOOT! See a knife? SHOOT! Suspect reaches into his pocket and you didn't tell him to? HE MIGHT BE REACHING FOR A GUN! SHOOT!

I remember an incident up in Seattle, where a native American homeless man used to carve little totem poles and other things from wood and sell them on the street corner. He was deaf. One day an officer was approaching him. The officer saw the wood carving knife and told him to drop it, but being deaf of course he didn't hear shit. He didn't make any aggressive movements towards the officer. He just stood there with his carving knife. He had no idea the cop yelled "drop the knife." So what does the cop do? He shoots him. Kills him. Dead. That's a cop that follows his training to the letter. And guess what? NO CHARGES. Because the cop felt threatened by the knife and the guy didn't drop it when ordered. No jury would convict because under Washington state law a prosecutor must prove MALICE to garner a conviction in a police shooting. No cop has ever been convicted in Washington state since the malice law went into effect and only a few ever made it to trial.

I no longer work in law enforcement, and this subject is one of the reasons I left. It's not that the police are filled with bad people that want to kill, it's just they're half filled with people that shouldn't be cops. They are good people that are in over their head because they lack the instinct, awareness and street smarts to do the job.

I don't want to turn this into a gun debate but you all know my stance on the 2nd amendment. Good people have a right to carry guns in this country (in most jurisdictions). Dumb cops that rely only on training are a threat to legal concealed carry as we saw in the Philando Castile case. Good guy with a gun permit tells the cop he has a gun and a permit and the cop kills him because he instantly added together robbery suspect+gun+black guy = imminent threat. He saw a boogeyman and he couldn't turn back. His training programmed him to react so he could go home safe.

It's insanity.

This times a thousand.

I was friends with a guy who was a cop in San Francisco, years ago, he walked his beat. He was a flatfoot, but he knew every person who lived in that area. He knew the kids, business owners, parents...

This really wasn't that long ago...1990s...after 2000 the powers that be decided to abandon that..they wanted cops in cars or motorcycles. He said then it would be a huge mistake for those areas. He was right.

He never once drew or fired his weapon. Maybe he had really good instincts...but took his retirement shortly after, because he saw that the police were shifting away from assume most are good and be careful to assume all are bad and will try to kill you.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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