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23-06-2017, 11:42 AM
RE: Justice
@Lord Dark Helmet

If the training is faulty, could it be reasonably fixed? I just read an article on Cracked that explained that in addition to being prone to shoot in situation of danger, cops were also worst at identifying liars than the average citizen because their ''lie detection'' training sucks. Ironically, I think military do a better job at keeping their cool, identify threats correctly and behave in a more diplomatic fashion while interacting with civilians.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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23-06-2017, 12:57 PM
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 11:42 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @Lord Dark Helmet

If the training is faulty, could it be reasonably fixed? I just read an article on Cracked that explained that in addition to being prone to shoot in situation of danger, cops were also worst at identifying liars than the average citizen because their ''lie detection'' training sucks. Ironically, I think military do a better job at keeping their cool, identify threats correctly and behave in a more diplomatic fashion while interacting with civilians.

It's not that the training is faulty. The training is fine. The problem is the wrong people are getting the job. There needs to be a better application process. There needs to be a way to weed out the ones that are prone to poor judgement, BEFORE we find out the hard way after they kill someone.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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23-06-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 12:57 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(23-06-2017 11:42 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @Lord Dark Helmet

If the training is faulty, could it be reasonably fixed? I just read an article on Cracked that explained that in addition to being prone to shoot in situation of danger, cops were also worst at identifying liars than the average citizen because their ''lie detection'' training sucks. Ironically, I think military do a better job at keeping their cool, identify threats correctly and behave in a more diplomatic fashion while interacting with civilians.

It's not that the training is faulty. The training is fine. The problem is the wrong people are getting the job. There needs to be a better application process. There needs to be a way to weed out the ones that are prone to poor judgement, BEFORE we find out the hard way after they kill someone.

Maybe its because I am a teacher, but if a training doesn't nurture or help develop the correct skills, aptitudes and behaviors, than the training is faulty. Maybe the application process could be improved to, but in the end good judgement in dangerous situation isn't something that falls down the sky, somewhere, somehow it's learned and developped. Don't you think there is a way to train it?

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23-06-2017, 01:14 PM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2017 01:21 PM by Lord Dark Helmet.)
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 01:02 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(23-06-2017 12:57 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  It's not that the training is faulty. The training is fine. The problem is the wrong people are getting the job. There needs to be a better application process. There needs to be a way to weed out the ones that are prone to poor judgement, BEFORE we find out the hard way after they kill someone.

Maybe its because I am a teacher, but if a training doesn't nurture or help develop the correct skills, aptitudes and behaviors, than the training is faulty. Maybe the application process could be improved to, but in the end good judgement in dangerous situation isn't something that falls down the sky, somewhere, somehow it's learned and developped. Don't you think there is a way to train it?

No. I don't.

There are cops that just know. They know when something is wrong. They can tell when someone is about to commit a crime. They can spot a shoplifter before the theft. They are naturally good at reading body language, eye movements, nervousness. These cops are ready for anything and everything.

Other cops are reactionary. They rarely stop crime, they only respond to it. They can drive a patrol all night and never spot any wrongdoing. They will only respond to calls that dispatch order them to. They write reports on things that took place in the past. And when it comes time for that type of cop to react to a crime in progress, they escalate to the highest level quickly because the only thing they have ever trained for is staying alive and putting the bad guy down. Unfortunately its often an overreaction.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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25-06-2017, 05:44 PM
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 06:31 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(23-06-2017 05:59 AM)Thinker Wrote:  Some policemen, fueled by racial and skin-deep dislikes, do injustices and kill innocent citizens. How to stop this madness?

Better training (especially in communication skills), body cameras, and more of a "first do no harm" mentality. We can afford to let some people go in ambiguous situations, if the alternatives are such killings.
That, and an emphasis on de-escalation and, in particular, how to handle non-cooperation in some way other than increasing anger and use of deadly force.

Our vacation was briefly interrupted yesterday by some knife-wielding guy in Joker-like face paint, babbling incoherently and talking about cutting himself. We went into a nearby shop, called the police, and they nabbed him almost immediately. Talking to the officers, we found that he instantly dropped the knife and went face down on command, so he was taken without incident.

But subtract the knife, make the guy black rather than white, and have him be psychotic or high enough or just panicked enough not to comply instantly, and he'd be far more likely to be shot ... maybe even in the back, if he tried to run.

The police are too accustomed to demanding compliance and don't seem to have a training that allows them to let nonviolent perps just get away, particularly when they already have their identity and description. They can be taken at leisure by other means than shooting them, and the perp can additionally be charged with resisting arrest and bear the heavier penalty for that. In other words the police use guns for too many things other than self-defense and their responses tend not to be proportional. I can see shooting someone who is shooting at you, but not someone who is just ignoring you or taunting you or walking away from you.
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25-06-2017, 06:04 PM
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 06:17 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(23-06-2017 05:59 AM)Thinker Wrote:  Some policemen, fueled by racial and skin-deep dislikes, do injustices and kill innocent citizens. How to stop this madness?

Drone strikes.

Seems to be working in e.g. Afghanistan so if it's good enough as foreign policy, no reason why it shouldn't work for domestic policy.

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You speak truth. In Tokyo, the Yakuza, not to be outdone by Amazon, have realized that transport of illicit material by drone is not only cost effective but enhances the overall customer experience and reduces the risk of interception and legal liability. The Tokyo police, not to be outdone by the Yakuza, have created intercept drones which ensnare the mafia drones without destroying them for forensic analysis. The Yakuza in response employ their own inter-intercept drones as kamikazes to take out the police intercept drones. It's all very civilized.

[Image: drone_zpsdypjobij.png]






.

#sigh
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25-06-2017, 09:13 PM
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 05:59 AM)Thinker Wrote:  Some policemen, fueled by racial and skin-deep dislikes, do injustices and kill innocent citizens. How to stop this madness?

Raise the bar on Education.

(23-06-2017 09:45 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  The problem is TRAINING.

No, the problem is Education. The greater the level of Education for a police officer the less likely they are to be involved in graft, bribery, corruption and violence or brutality.

The enemy numbered six hundred - including women and children - and we abolished them utterly, leaving not even a baby alive to cry for its dead mother. This is incomparably the greatest victory that was ever achieved by the Christian soldiers of the United States. -- Mark Twain
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25-06-2017, 09:17 PM
RE: Justice
(25-06-2017 09:13 PM)Mircea Wrote:  
(23-06-2017 05:59 AM)Thinker Wrote:  Some policemen, fueled by racial and skin-deep dislikes, do injustices and kill innocent citizens. How to stop this madness?

Raise the bar on Education.

(23-06-2017 09:45 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  The problem is TRAINING.

No, the problem is Education. The greater the level of Education for a police officer the less likely they are to be involved in graft, bribery, corruption and violence or brutality.

Citation needed.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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25-06-2017, 09:59 PM
RE: Justice
(25-06-2017 09:17 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(25-06-2017 09:13 PM)Mircea Wrote:  Raise the bar on Education.


No, the problem is Education. The greater the level of Education for a police officer the less likely they are to be involved in graft, bribery, corruption and violence or brutality.

Citation needed.

I'd like to point out that the difference between "training" and "education" in this instance is, in my opinion, nonexistent.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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25-06-2017, 10:38 PM
RE: Justice
(23-06-2017 01:14 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(23-06-2017 01:02 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Maybe its because I am a teacher, but if a training doesn't nurture or help develop the correct skills, aptitudes and behaviors, than the training is faulty. Maybe the application process could be improved to, but in the end good judgement in dangerous situation isn't something that falls down the sky, somewhere, somehow it's learned and developped. Don't you think there is a way to train it?

No. I don't.

There are cops that just know. They know when something is wrong. They can tell when someone is about to commit a crime. They can spot a shoplifter before the theft. They are naturally good at reading body language, eye movements, nervousness. These cops are ready for anything and everything.

In the book Blink, Gladwell calls it "rapid cognition" or "thin skinning". The phenomenon applies everywhere but in the case of cops it's the difference between a 23 yo immigrant from Guinea getting shot 41 times at his front door and a 16 yo punk criminal with the gun who is still alive because the veteran cop when asked why he didn't shoot the kid said, "He wasn't ready to shoot." "How did you know?" "Because if he was ready to shoot I would've shot him." Blink does an excellent job of analyzing a bunch of these split-decision life-or-death situations with cops.

One of the points I think Gladwell is making is that you assume at your own peril that just because intellectually, emotionally, and behaviorally you know you're not racist, you do not have automatic subconscious racial associations which under some accidental conflations of events may have life or death implications. He suggests we mainly avoid this introspection because we mistakenly think those associations would mean we're racist. They have developed a systematic method for evaluating your own subconscious implicit associations for a variety of categories at https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/selectatest.html.

#sigh
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