Justification for NTS?
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12-10-2015, 01:52 PM (This post was last modified: 12-10-2015 02:16 PM by kingschosen.)
Justification for NTS?
EDIT: Seriously? Wow. No True Scotsman. SMH.

DISCLAIMER:

I'm not Heywooding or popsing... this is a serious conundrum that came into my mind today. So yeah... y'all know me well enough to know I'm not trying to troll. I know the NTS fallacy has been argued over and over, but I want to see and hear actual answers to my scenario.



One night, after your shower, you notice a weird lump on your lower back close to your spine. You don't think much of it at first, but then it begins to grow larger. And, then it becomes painful.

You finally can't ignore it anymore, so you go to the doctor to get it checked out. The doctors are concerned so they put you through a litany of tests. They don't biopsy it because x-rays show that it's completely entangled in your spine. X-rays also show that it's the Big C. Stage 4 at least. They decided a biopsy would be needless, dangerous, and invasive since the docs have the evidence they need to make an informed medical decision.

They give you less than a year to live. Your only hope is agreeing to have an extremely dangerous surgery. So... it's official now. During this time you are living as a person with cancer. Everyone you know knows that you have cancer and the severity of it.

Finally, you make up your mind to have the surgery. The doctors do a miraculous job at removing the tumor and all its fingers without damaging your spine or spinal cord; but what's even more surprising is that the tumor was completely benign... not a trace of cancer in it.

So... with that being so... where you ever a cancer patient? How could you be? You never met the requirements (having cancer). Up until the time of the surgery, you lived as a cancer patient and everyone around you treated you as a cancer patient.

But, when faced with the requirements of being a cancer patient, you did not have a single iota of evidence that you ever were one or ever will be. It just simply appeared that you were. It was so convincing that you had cancer, trained medical professionals placed their reputations on the line in order to say that you had life threatening cancer.



How is this scenario different than those that claim to be Christians and then deconvert? According to Christian mythos, a true Christian can never leave God. People can do everything to appear to be a Christian; however, if they don't meet the simple requirement of being one of the beloved, they have the ability to "deconvert". But, according to the mythos, much like the "cancer patient" they never met the requirements in the first place.

How is this not justification for NTS?

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12-10-2015, 01:57 PM
RE: Justification for NTS?
Not that smart?

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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12-10-2015, 02:14 PM
RE: Justification for NTS?
I agree that being a Christian is like having cancer.

I've got no idea what nutri-tech solutions (I googled it) has got to do with Christianity though.
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12-10-2015, 02:18 PM
RE: Justification for NTS?
(12-10-2015 01:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  How is this scenario different than those that claim to be Christians and then deconvert? According to Christian mythos, a true Christian can never leave God. People can do everything to appear to be a Christian; however, if they don't meet the simple requirement of being one of the beloved, they have the ability to "deconvert". But, according to the mythos, much like the "cancer patient" they never met the requirements in the first place.

How is this not justification for NTS?
What qualifies a person as being a Christian?

Does it mean that a person must believe in Yeshua (a.k.a. Jesus) and believe that Yeshua was the son of god and god himself at the same time?
Does the person have to believe in the Trinity? Do they have to believe that Yeshua rose from the dead?
If they believe all these things then are they a Christian? or is there some other requirement?
Having belief in all these things does the person also need to worship god and Yeshua? Do they have to profess unconditional love of Yeshua and god? Do they have to perform certain sacramental rituals? Do they have to read the bible or certain parts of it?


How can we test for (observe) this with 100% certainty?
Would the person themself know if they are Christian or not? Would they know what they believe, would they have reliable memories of performing the prerequisite sacraments?

Would it be possible that a person does all of the above, then hears some argument about how there is no verifiable evidence for god and Yeshua and then this person decide that their "knowledge" requires supporting evidence, and thus choose to discard god belief until such a point as when compelling evidence brings itself forward?

I know that I have heard arguments about various things and changed my opinions/beliefs as a result. I used to believe in morality, moral obligation etc, now I don't.
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12-10-2015, 02:21 PM
RE: Justification for NTS?
(12-10-2015 02:14 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I agree that being a Christian is like having cancer.

I've got no idea what nutri-tech solutions (I googled it) has got to do with Christianity though.
I would think that removing this person from attending church service, from bible study, from proximity of devout religo-nutters would help to cure this person. It seems religion often requires a person to regularly top-up on this nonsense. Also take away the threat of hell and the threat of ostracisation.
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12-10-2015, 02:26 PM
RE: Justification for NTS?
(12-10-2015 01:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  They decided a biopsy would be needless, dangerous, and invasive since the docs have the evidence they need to make an informed medical decision.

Your doctors never hear tell of needle biopsies? PET scans? There is at least the theoretical possibility of doing these tests to prove or disprove the cancer hypothesis. What is the equivalent for Christianity?

Doc
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12-10-2015, 02:48 PM
RE: Justification for NTS?
The tumor in your example is physical, real, and evidently life-threatening, even though misnamed by the doctors and patient. I wouldn't really agree that a mistaken diagnosis disqualifies it as a life-threatening situation requiring correction, and thus as a qualitatively different circumstance from someone living with a cancer diagnosis.

I don't think the analogy works, because in your example there is still a medical problem that is causing problems and needs to be fixed. (It would make more sense if the movement was between religions: you didn't have Christianity, you had Hinduism, isn't that a relief)
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12-10-2015, 02:48 PM (This post was last modified: 12-10-2015 02:53 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Justification for NTS?
(12-10-2015 02:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 02:14 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I agree that being a Christian is like having cancer.

I've got no idea what nutri-tech solutions (I googled it) has got to do with Christianity though.
I would think that removing this person from attending church service, from bible study, from proximity of devout religo-nutters would help to cure this person. It seems religion often requires a person to regularly top-up on this nonsense. Also take away the threat of hell and the threat of ostracisation.

Yes.
Remove the cause of the cancer...the priests and the preachers. Cut off their income and force them to get a real job. Make them pay tax like everyone else.
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12-10-2015, 02:51 PM
RE: Justification for NTS?
As an atheist, I don't think there is any such thing as a "true Christian" -- they are all deluded -- but even when I was a Christian, I didn't consider it a meaningful phrase. There are all kinds of definitions of what a Christian is, and whether or not a person "really" is one would depend on which definition you choose (for "Q Continuum", it seems to be very important that you've been "born again").

However, I find it amusing that cancer was chosen as an analogy for Christianity.
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12-10-2015, 02:55 PM (This post was last modified: 12-10-2015 03:09 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Justification for NTS?
"Benign" is misleading. They're not "nice" tumors. All that means is they don't invade other organs or spread around. But they can arise in very dangerous places, (like near the spine, the heart or any organ ... or the brain). They can be life-threatening. So I wouldn't sweat the misleading nomenclature. Technically they are classified as "neoplastic" growth. So yes. They are "benign" cancers, and that person was a cancer patient.

That will be $50.00 please.
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Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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