Justification of hell?
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13-09-2013, 03:01 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 02:56 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 02:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no evidence for the existence of any of that, so unicorns.

Were are having a discussion and in order to do so certain assumptions are made.

Why do you have to come in here and retard it all up?

It was already in full retard.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-09-2013, 03:03 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2013 03:11 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 02:29 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 01:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Fallacy of the false analogy.
The party thrower is said to be omniscient.
Purposely making people for one party, then making it impossible for them to attend, and by not attending, making the only (other) possible outcome, a punishment, is a malevolent evil act. It's also complete bullshit. Sheol was not hell. "Coming and going" (places) in a spaceless-timeless environment is meaningless. Needs time to get there, space to be there. Drivel. Pure and simple. 100 % crap.

Bucky

Lets assume for a moment that Heaven, Hell and God(not any god in particular) actually exist. Further lets assume that the difference between Heaven and Hell is one is a cool party and the other party completely sucks eggs(no pain punishment, but a party like one you'd throw).

Why is God obligated to let you into the cool party?

Because before you talked about your stupid party, you defined (or presumed) a deity with certain properties. Those properties did not include capricious malevolence.

Unlike the dumb deity in question, I do throw one of the best parties.
It's gotten so big, the fire marshal is now making noises.
My Halloween party is now famous in San Diego County.
People are already begging me for invitations.
Last year we had 532 people. Tux/formal attire or costume required. No men in drag allowed in the women's bathrooms. Weeping
Fucking thing. I have to start planning it in August.
Unlike your deity, I don't tell people about it, then purposely not invite them.
You gots a really mean god.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-09-2013, 03:05 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2013 03:08 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 02:49 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Let me summarize some things for you.




*fixt.

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13-09-2013, 03:06 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2013 03:10 PM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 02:58 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 02:56 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Were are having a discussion and in order to do so certain assumptions are made.

Why do you have to come in here and retard it all up?

He has given as much proof of Unicorns as you have of hell.

I'm not arguing that hell exists. I am arguing that eternal punishment can be justified. Big difference.

I think I did a pretty good job too as evidenced by the desire to move the goal post into a discussion on whether or not hell actually exists.
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13-09-2013, 03:07 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2013 03:14 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 02:49 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You an Bucky need to read the thread if you are going to be able to give coherent responses.

Let me summarize some things for you.

I pointed out that a finite punishment could be spread over an infinite period of time. Another poster pointed out that not being in heaven is essentially a punishment itself. I agreed with that poster. However not being in heaven isn't the same as being tormented. God can only said to be cruel by giving you an infinite amount of torment. If He gives a finite amount of torment but never lets you into heaven, that's fine because He is under no moral obligation to let you into heaven.

The ticket to Heaven is something earned by you.....not an entitlement to be given to you simply because you were created.



Really?

Quote:I pointed out that a finite punishment could be spread over an infinite period of time.

This only proves you know jack shit about math. X multiplied by infinity is still infinity. A 'finite' punishment over an infinite time is still, for all intents and purposes, an infinite punishment.


Quote:Another poster pointed out that not being in heaven is essentially a punishment itself. I agreed with that poster.

According to traditional christology, the only two options are Heaven and Hell. So if you can't get into Heaven...


Quote:However not being in heaven isn't the same as being tormented

Unless of course the only other place you can be is a place of eternal punishment and suffering...


Quote: God can only said to be cruel by giving you an infinite amount of torment.

False. God need only torment at all, it need not be on an infinite timescale for god to qualify at the very least as not being benevolent; and it hardly needs to be any longer to reach the status of cruelty.


Quote:If He gives a finite amount of torment but never lets you into heaven, that's fine because He is under no moral obligation to let you into heaven.

Sure, he's under no moral obligation, but then you cannot posit that your god is moral or benevolent. For you to claim that your god is moral or benevolent, then he must oblige himself to meet those standards, and the very existence of Hell easily disqualifies him from both.


Quote:The ticket to Heaven is something earned by you.....not an entitlement to be given to you simply because you were created

The problem here is that this is incompatible with your earlier assertion of an omniscient god. If your god knew that certain people, if they were created, would end up in a Hell that he will never let them leave; then it is infinitely cruel and capricious of him to let those people come into existence if he knows their eventual fate is eternal damnation.


Quote:I'm not arguing that hell exists. I am arguing that eternal punishment can be justified. Big difference.

It cannot. We are finite creatures of finite means, finite power, and a finite ability to cause harm. There is NOTHING a human could do to ever warrant eternal punishment. Fucking listen to yourself, you are arguing IN FAVOR of eternal punishment of sentient beings. You are fucking sick in the head...



So all you've done is show just how much your critical faculties lack, and how much a monster your god is if he actually existed as you describe. Good luck with that... Drinking Beverage

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13-09-2013, 03:10 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 03:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I am arguing that eternal punishment can be justified.

Woah, we got a badass here.

No, it cannot. Come by my house sometime, I'll show ya. Thumbsup

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13-09-2013, 03:15 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 03:10 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 03:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I am arguing that eternal punishment can be justified.

Woah, we got a badass here.

No, it cannot. Come by my house sometime, I'll show ya. Thumbsup

You don't want that. I'd tell you all the reasons why Paltrow doesn't do it for me and everytime you look at Paltrow, you'd be thinking about those reason...at least in the back of your mind.
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13-09-2013, 03:23 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 03:15 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 03:10 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Woah, we got a badass here.

No, it cannot. Come by my house sometime, I'll show ya. Thumbsup

You don't want that. I'd tell you all the reasons why Paltrow doesn't do it for me and everytime you look at Paltrow, you'd be thinking about those reason...at least in the back of your mind.

Been there, done that, wrote the sequel.

For all of her magnificence, Gwynnie is finite.

You don't know jack diddly about hell. I was gonna make a game, for instance, called Free Palestine.* Full VR surround, you get to curb-stomp Jews all day every day. With the sound, the stench... the empathy.

Just had to simulate it to disprove it. You cannot hate nobody foreverz, not in our genetic make-up.

*
It's a "for instance," don't get uptight.

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13-09-2013, 03:24 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 03:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 02:58 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  He has given as much proof of Unicorns as you have of hell.

I'm not arguing that hell exists. I am arguing that eternal punishment can be justified. Big difference.

I think I did a pretty good job too as evidenced by the desire to move the goal post into a discussion on whether or not hell actually exists.

No, your infinite geometric series argument fails.

The suffering quickly becomes so miniscule as to not qualify as suffering, therefore it is not infinite suffering, or
it is never so small as to qualify as not suffering, in which case it is infinite suffering and not justifiable for a finite crime.

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13-09-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 03:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 03:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I'm not arguing that hell exists. I am arguing that eternal punishment can be justified. Big difference.

I think I did a pretty good job too as evidenced by the desire to move the goal post into a discussion on whether or not hell actually exists.

No, your infinite geometric series argument fails.

The suffering quickly becomes so miniscule as to not qualify as suffering, therefore it is not infinite suffering, or
it is never so small as to qualify as not suffering, in which case it is infinite suffering and not justifiable for a finite crime.

That was addressed Chas, You'd know it if you read and comprehended the thread. Perhaps you can do that and respond to my response to that particular critique.
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