Justification of hell?
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13-09-2013, 03:41 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2013 04:28 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 02:49 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Let me summarize some things for you.

I pointed out that a finite punishment could be spread over an infinite period of time.

The ticket to Heaven is something earned by you.....not an entitlement to be given to you simply because you were created.

Actually that's easily demonstrably false. Eventually, any finite quantity of suffering would run down. For "suffering" to be a definable, perceivable entity, (if the word makes sense), it would need a threshold of perception. In order for that to happen, actual "amounts" (call them "*suffer-bits*), of it would be necessary. A quantifiable amount divided over an infinity would lead to a level of *suffer-bits* that would not be perceptible, and eventually have large gaps. So sad. Too bad. Wrong again.

Heaven and hell are non-biblical. Before anyone says anything, that has to be demonstrated, (and it's impossible).

"Ticket to heaven" is juvenile nonsense make up by idiots who know nothing about theology and philosophy and spacetime.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-09-2013, 03:44 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 03:27 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 03:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, your infinite geometric series argument fails.

The suffering quickly becomes so miniscule as to not qualify as suffering, therefore it is not infinite suffering, or
it is never so small as to qualify as not suffering, in which case it is infinite suffering and not justifiable for a finite crime.

That was addressed Chas, You'd know it if you read and comprehended the thread. Perhaps you can do that and respond to my response to that particular critique.

What, your geometric series?

Christian mysticism includes such wonderful tenets as self-flagellation. As a prophet, I experimented with such. There's this temporal segment from October of 2008 until February of 2009 that I have cataloged as "the Gwynnie toothache." Got one of them?

Pain was pretty infinite back then, now there's a hole in my jaw. (As a demonstration of faith, yeah, i had that puppy removed in August of this year)

What I'm saying is that finite experience *does not map* along an infinite timeline.

What I'm also saying, is that the justification of hell requires god. Are you god? 'Cause that's funny, I don't remember you claiming to be a prophet...

(13-09-2013 03:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "Ticket to heaven" is juvenile nonsense make up by idiots who know nothing about theology and philosophy and spacetime.

Acceptance of Holy Spirit means eternal life is now.

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13-09-2013, 03:50 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(12-09-2013 08:55 AM)Taro Wrote:  At some point we talked about the concept of Hell
I think the big question is:
"For what purpose would there be a Hell?"

If I think of our prison system, what is that for?
Prison is as a deterrent for would be offenders and as a place to keep dangerous people so that they are no longer a threat to society.


So does hell meet these things?
Deterrent- In order for hell to be a deterrent, people would have to be aware that hell exists, they would have to know what crimes get them into hell and for how long. If there is no out, then this experience in hell doesn't work as a deterrent for that person. But if others can't see people going to hell for crimes then it isn't much of a deterrent for them either
Remove threat - In heaven are "bad" people a threat?
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13-09-2013, 03:56 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 03:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 02:49 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Let me summarize some things for you.

I pointed out that a finite punishment could be spread over an infinite period of time.

The ticket to Heaven is something earned by you.....not an entitlement to be given to you simply because you were created.

Actually that's easily demonstrably false. Eventually, any finite quantity of suffering would run down. For "suffering" to be a definable, perceivable entity, (if the word makes sense), it would need a threshold of perception. In order for that to happen, actual "amounts" (call them "*suffer-bits*), of it would be necessary. A quantifiable amount divided over an infinity would lead to a level of *suffer-bits* that would not be perceptible. So sad. Too bad. Wrong again.

Heaven and hell are non-biblical. Before anyone says anything, that has to be demonstrated, (and it's impossible).

"Ticket to heaven" is juvenile nonsense make up by idiots who know nothing about theology and philosophy and spacetime.

If you read and comprehended this thread, You would have seen I have already addressed this particular critique. I'll do it again because I pity you.

You are assuming that suffering in the afterlife is quantized. It doesn't have to be that way. If a soul is capable of perceiving any amount of suffering, then finite punishment can be spread over an infinite time frame.
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13-09-2013, 04:12 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2013 05:13 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 03:56 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 03:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Actually that's easily demonstrably false. Eventually, any finite quantity of suffering would run down. For "suffering" to be a definable, perceivable entity, (if the word makes sense), it would need a threshold of perception. In order for that to happen, actual "amounts" (call them "*suffer-bits*), of it would be necessary. A quantifiable amount divided over an infinity would lead to a level of *suffer-bits* that would not be perceptible. So sad. Too bad. Wrong again.

Heaven and hell are non-biblical. Before anyone says anything, that has to be demonstrated, (and it's impossible).

"Ticket to heaven" is juvenile nonsense make up by idiots who know nothing about theology and philosophy and spacetime.

If you read and comprehended this thread, You would have seen I have already addressed this particular critique. I'll do it again because I pity you.

You are assuming that suffering in the afterlife is quantized. It doesn't have to be that way. If a soul is capable of perceiving any amount of suffering, then finite punishment can be spread over an infinite time frame.

Except you didn't really address the problem.
And you missed the point, because you are beyond pity.
There is no evidence for "souls" BTW.

Any *AMOUNT*" IS still an "amount". Amount(s) IS/ARE "quantization(s)", by (fucking) definition.
Too bad you are so stupid, and beyond pity.

Like all the others, in your class of idiots here, you want to redefine words, for your personal use, and IMPOSE your personal definitions on others. Idiot.
See below. Pay particular attention to "quantity". The word "amount" implies quantization. Obviously you're trying to say suffering could not come in "quantities", but that's preposterous. For "perception" to happen, a minimum threshold would be required, and THAT itself requires quantization, (but you know nothing about perception, so that makes no sense to you). You're using the word "amount" incorrectly. You want to use the word, but you want it to mean something it does not.
So, you're screwed on both ends. So sad. Too bad.

a·mount
əˈmount/
noun
noun: amount;plural noun: amounts

1.
a quantity of something, typically the total of a thing or things in number, size, value, or extent.
"the sport gives an enormous amount of pleasure to many people"
synonyms: quantity, number, total, aggregate, sum, quota, group, size, mass, weight, volume, bulk, lot, quantum More
"a fair amount of roast beef"
a sum of money.
"they have spent a colossal amount rebuilding the stadium"

One other definition that applys to BlowJob :

"a result that amounted to complete failure"
develop into; become.
"you'll never amount to anything" Tongue
synonyms: become, develop into, prove to be, turn out to be More
"her relationships had never amounted to anything significant"

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-09-2013, 05:15 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 04:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 03:56 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If you read and comprehended this thread, You would have seen I have already addressed this particular critique. I'll do it again because I pity you.

You are assuming that suffering in the afterlife is quantized. It doesn't have to be that way. If a soul is capable of perceiving any amount of suffering, then finite punishment can be spread over an infinite time frame.

Except you didn't really address the problem.
And you missed the point, because you are beyond pity.
There is no evidence for "souls" BTW.

Any *AMOUNT*" IS still an "amount". Amount(s) IS/ARE "quantization(s)", by (fucking) definition.
Too bad you are so stupid, and beyond pity.

Like all the others, in your class of idiots here, you want to redefine words, for your personal use, and IMPOSE your personal definitions on others. Idiot.
See below. Pay particular attention to "quantity". The word "amount" implies quantization. Obviously you're trying to say suffering could not come in "quantities", but that's preposterous. For "perception" to happen, a minimum threshold would be required, and THAT itself requires quantization, (but you know nothing about physiology, so that makes no sense to you). You're using the word "amount" incorrectly. You want to use the word, but you want it to mean something it does not.
So, you're screwed on both ends. So sad. Too bad.

a·mount
əˈmount/
noun
noun: amount;plural noun: amounts

1.
a quantity of something, typically the total of a thing or things in number, size, value, or extent.
"the sport gives an enormous amount of pleasure to many people"
synonyms: quantity, number, total, aggregate, sum, quota, group, size, mass, weight, volume, bulk, lot, quantum More
"a fair amount of roast beef"
a sum of money.
"they have spent a colossal amount rebuilding the stadium"

One other definition that applys to BlowJob :

"a result that amounted to complete failure"
develop into; become.
"you'll never amount to anything" Tongue
synonyms: become, develop into, prove to be, turn out to be More
"her relationships had never amounted to anything significant"

There you go again...shifting goal posts because you can't win this argument. The question is can eternal punishment be justified? Not is there a heaven or hell.

Now the answer to the question of can eternal punishment ever be justified the answer is yes....it can. A finite amount of punishment can be spread over an infinite amount of time as long as suffering is not quantized. A just eternal punishment is logically possible.
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13-09-2013, 05:26 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 05:15 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Now the answer to the question of can eternal punishment ever be justified the answer is yes....it can. A finite amount of punishment can be spread over an infinite amount of time as long as suffering is not quantized. A just eternal punishment is logically possible.

By calling it a series, it is explicitly quantized. (also: you illustrated it with the 1/2n series, but called this the Harmonic series, which is 1/n and divergent)

'Course, you can just say it's a periodic sampling of an exponential decrease, but the nature of the function is the same. The value is infinitesimal as the index approaches infinity. The limit is zero - that's what it means to be convergent.

Perception is by definition quantized, for real human beings; you can handwave this away, though it isn't particularly compelling. But if so, I'd be interested in knowing how you'd define perception of an infinitesimal stimulus. In what sense could that be said to be meaningful or significant?

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13-09-2013, 05:47 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 05:15 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 04:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Except you didn't really address the problem.
And you missed the point, because you are beyond pity.
There is no evidence for "souls" BTW.

Any *AMOUNT*" IS still an "amount". Amount(s) IS/ARE "quantization(s)", by (fucking) definition.
Too bad you are so stupid, and beyond pity.

Like all the others, in your class of idiots here, you want to redefine words, for your personal use, and IMPOSE your personal definitions on others. Idiot.
See below. Pay particular attention to "quantity". The word "amount" implies quantization. Obviously you're trying to say suffering could not come in "quantities", but that's preposterous. For "perception" to happen, a minimum threshold would be required, and THAT itself requires quantization, (but you know nothing about physiology, so that makes no sense to you). You're using the word "amount" incorrectly. You want to use the word, but you want it to mean something it does not.
So, you're screwed on both ends. So sad. Too bad.

a·mount
əˈmount/
noun
noun: amount;plural noun: amounts

1.
a quantity of something, typically the total of a thing or things in number, size, value, or extent.
"the sport gives an enormous amount of pleasure to many people"
synonyms: quantity, number, total, aggregate, sum, quota, group, size, mass, weight, volume, bulk, lot, quantum More
"a fair amount of roast beef"
a sum of money.
"they have spent a colossal amount rebuilding the stadium"

One other definition that applys to BlowJob :

"a result that amounted to complete failure"
develop into; become.
"you'll never amount to anything" Tongue
synonyms: become, develop into, prove to be, turn out to be More
"her relationships had never amounted to anything significant"

There you go again...shifting goal posts because you can't win this argument. The question is can eternal punishment be justified? Not is there a heaven or hell.

Now the answer to the question of can eternal punishment ever be justified the answer is yes....it can. A finite amount of punishment can be spread over an infinite amount of time as long as suffering is not quantized. A just eternal punishment is logically possible.

There you go again saying "there you go again".
The argument that was just lost, was you loosing the "quantization" of suffering point. I'm not interested in the larger question, as it's irrelevant. My only point was that YOUR specific statement using the word "amount" was bullshit. I can't lose an argument I say nothing about. There is no "argument", until heaven and hell are demonstrated. No one has done that. And it is easly demonstrable they are not authentic biblical concepts, which you are totally incompetent at discussing.

What is this. Idiot alumni return week at TTA ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-09-2013, 06:12 PM
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 05:26 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 05:15 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Now the answer to the question of can eternal punishment ever be justified the answer is yes....it can. A finite amount of punishment can be spread over an infinite amount of time as long as suffering is not quantized. A just eternal punishment is logically possible.

By calling it a series, it is explicitly quantized. (also: you illustrated it with the 1/2n series, but called this the Harmonic series, which is 1/n and divergent)

'Course, you can just say it's a periodic sampling of an exponential decrease, but the nature of the function is the same. The value is infinitesimal as the index approaches infinity. The limit is zero - that's what it means to be convergent.

Perception is by definition quantized, for real human beings; you can handwave this away, though it isn't particularly compelling. But if so, I'd be interested in knowing how you'd define perception of an infinitesimal stimulus. In what sense could that be said to be meaningful or significant?

I'm not trying to convince you that heaven or hell exist. I am not trying to make a compelling argument that the torments of hell are structured in a manner like I outlined. I am only trying to show that given a certain set of assumptions, a finite punishment can be delivered over an infinite time frame....that it is logically possible for an eternal punishment to be just(a finite amount of punishment given for a finite offense).

I'm not even attack atheism in this thread. I am attacking a wrong but widely held belief by many atheists that it is impossible for an eternal punishment to be just. That belief is clearly wrong and should be abandoned.
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13-09-2013, 06:27 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2013 06:35 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Justification of hell?
(13-09-2013 06:12 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I am only trying to show that given a certain set of assumptions, a finite punishment can be delivered over an infinite time frame....that it is logically possible for an eternal punishment to be just(a finite amount of punishment given for a finite offense).

Great. You failed. A "finite" punishment is a quantized concept. A "finite" (anything) quantized over the infinite is imperceptible. Something imperceptible, does not meet the definition of "suffering".

You also make the common street level mistake when talking about the "eternal". Eternal is not "endless time". It's "timeless". Since you have no training in Theology or Philosophy, you talk out your ass, about concepts you know nothing about. Your premise is meaningless.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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