KMFDM_Kid2000 vs. Christian Forums
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09-05-2013, 10:27 AM
RE: KMFDM_Kid2000 vs. Christian Forums
(09-05-2013 09:16 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-05-2013 04:05 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Well, that's an interesting way to put it!

While I have no experience dabbling in their waters, frankly I have no interest in doing so; I like exposing my brain to as little stupidity as possibly, but through my observations I have grown a liking toward referring to arguing against people like over there as "Throwing a wet sponge at a titanium wall."

You know your not getting anywhere with your efforts and once you stop you are left feeling like an idiot, mourning all the effort you put into lobbing that wet sponge at that titanium wall.

I do find it interesting though. It is a learning experience to see how they reason, how they "think" and how they respond to criticism. It just isn't always in a way that I can justifiably argue is sane.

Like that one guys hot/cold argument and then claiming it had never been addressed when it had been utterly destroyed. I'm glad I got the chance to read the thread before they deleted it was very informative. Funny we have a thread going on 210+ pages with an apologist and noone has asked for that to be deleted. Guess when you have no argument you can't let it be seen by everyone.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-05-2013, 10:58 AM
RE: KMFDM_Kid2000 vs. Christian Forums
Yeah, exactly. KMFDM explained heat and how we use the words hot and cold, and then dude acted like it was not addressed, and it was. I think it illustrates how arguing with some people is like arguing with a brick wall. They have no idea how to argue, they have already formed their opinion of the world and decided that things are supernatural, and then they just use the same old attempts to insult people, like saying people who don't think like them are close-minded propagandists and party-poopers.

I think a lot of them just read the books like that one by McDowell and just parrot his arguments, thinking if other people say them, they must make sense and be good arguments. They are usually not, because, just like their own, they decided on their conclusion (god exists) before looking at the evidence, and then pick and choose things as evidence that they think support their view of the world (christianity). The whole thing really demonstrates the power of all sorts of cognitive errors.
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09-05-2013, 11:11 AM
RE: KMFDM_Kid2000 vs. Christian Forums
(09-05-2013 10:58 AM)amyb Wrote:  Yeah, exactly. KMFDM explained heat and how we use the words hot and cold, and then dude acted like it was not addressed, and it was. I think it illustrates how arguing with some people is like arguing with a brick wall. They have no idea how to argue, they have already formed their opinion of the world and decided that things are supernatural, and then they just use the same old attempts to insult people, like saying people who don't think like them are close-minded propagandists and party-poopers.

I think a lot of them just read the books like that one by McDowell and just parrot his arguments, thinking if other people say them, they must make sense and be good arguments. They are usually not, because, just like their own, they decided on their conclusion (god exists) before looking at the evidence, and then pick and choose things as evidence that they think support their view of the world (christianity). The whole thing really demonstrates the power of all sorts of cognitive errors.

I enjoy debating (not arguing there is a deference) with people that hold an opposite view point because it makes me think out my position more clearly. If I am using a logical fallacy then I can either A: Rethink my position or B: Explain my position in clearer and more precise terms so as to eliminate that fallacy. Noone is perfect so we all probably have a few things that aren't fully rationed out just because they are either not really important to us or they fit with our overview of the world so they get mixed into the shuffle. The key caveat here is the fact that when I am shown a true logical fallacy I take steps to correct it, these poor schmucks just like to circle jerk.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-05-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: KMFDM_Kid2000 vs. Christian Forums
I enjoy debating in real life and in some places online (TTA), but not on Christian forums because they tend to ban atheists immediately, so little discussion is possible. That, and I find that in many places, people don't understand logic are not able to debate.

I enjoy pointing out logical fallacies anywhere I go, though, whether or not religion is involved.
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09-05-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: KMFDM_Kid2000 vs. Christian Forums
(09-05-2013 10:58 AM)amyb Wrote:  I think a lot of them just read the books like that one by McDowell and just parrot his arguments, thinking if other people say them, they must make sense and be good arguments. They are usually not, because, just like their own, they decided on their conclusion (god exists) before looking at the evidence, and then pick and choose things as evidence that they think support their view of the world (christianity). The whole thing really demonstrates the power of all sorts of cognitive errors.

Based on my time in Xianity, it's probably also due in part on the preservation of faith. That's because Xians tend to believe that faith without firm evidence is necessary as a sort of test - God won't entirely reveal himself because he wants people to love and trust him even though they can't see him or otherwise interact w/him (Jesus said to him [Thomas], "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." John 20:29).

Here's another well-known passage often used to attack evolutionists: Romans 1: 20-22, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures."

I've seen this passage used to slam anyone who believes in science vs. God, as it appears to demean those who stand for the idea that the natural world came into being without a Creator and exists on its own non-supernatural power. Based on God's Word, the world and everything in it points to Him - not to science or evolution. So anyone leaning towards non-creationism is flirting with foolishness, sin, and ultimately heresy.

So it's no wonder that the typical Xian feels that he or she must believe even without absolute proof (and in the face of otherwise compelling empirical evidence) because that's the expectation of Jesus, backed up by Paul. Any proof, especially when offered from an Xian authority, is gladly taken at face value - possibly because the layman sees passages like the ones above (and hears accompanying sermons) and thus feels that doubts are bad and considering other options is a slippery slope to sin and foolishness. Perhaps they even feel that the expert must have gone out on a spiritual limb and flirted with doubt (possibly risking even their salvation) to discover their apologetic information and bring it back to the faithful for their edification.
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09-05-2013, 03:07 PM
RE: KMFDM_Kid2000 vs. Christian Forums
Yes, pilgrim, I'm sure that's true. But for me, the thing is that they don't admit that, they just call me an asshole for daring to question anything, and that annoys me.

It is quite possible to have a good debate with a theist, but it just seems to me that many times (especially when not on TTA) you just can't argue logically with a person who is not logical.

I also find it disturbing, all the ways xianity discourages critical thinking by saying it means your faith is weak (and therefore, you are a failure and weak if you think) or you are being tempted by the devil. I guess, as a skeptical person, I just have trouble understanding how anyone can be proud of their "faith."
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09-05-2013, 03:41 PM
RE: KMFDM_Kid2000 vs. Christian Forums
(09-05-2013 03:07 PM)amyb Wrote:  Yes, pilgrim, I'm sure that's true. But for me, the thing is that they don't admit that, they just call me an asshole for daring to question anything, and that annoys me.

It is quite possible to have a good debate with a theist, but it just seems to me that many times (especially when not on TTA) you just can't argue logically with a person who is not logical.

I also find it disturbing, all the ways xianity discourages critical thinking by saying it means your faith is weak (and therefore, you are a failure and weak if you think) or you are being tempted by the devil. I guess, as a skeptical person, I just have trouble understanding how anyone can be proud of their "faith."

Yep! Logic tends to lose out to faith - after all, faith has a strong basis in fear - "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction." Proverbs 1:7. Anything leading away from God is seen as nonsense and sin, which in turn will make one end up in apostasy and perhaps on the slippery slope to hell (or at least loss of eternal rewards). Truly an imprisoning belief system, as I can attest.
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09-05-2013, 04:10 PM
RE: KMFDM_Kid2000 vs. Christian Forums
Well, they certainly try to block all exits.
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12-05-2013, 01:23 AM
RE: KMFDM_Kid2000 vs. Christian Forums
I was able to salvage my original post at least:

Quote:Call me a masochist, or whatever, but here's my story, I'd like your perspective and opinion.

For most of my life, I remember growing up attending church. My mother seemed confused at first, as we attended a Mormon church for a while, switched to Catholic, then eventually a Pentecostal church for a few years while I was very young, then finally settled on a rather generic non-denominational church with distinct Pentecostal flavorings.

I remember my earlier years from 8 to 12 reading the bible constantly, and at 12, after a rather moving youth group service, I decided to accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior. I believed with my whole heart in the gospel, and I believed with my whole heart that if I died at that very moment, I would go to heaven post-judgement.

Fast forward a few years to 2008. Up to that point, I continued to read the bible, but I had issues with a lot of things that seemingly didn't add up. I had doubts I prayed about, such as the historicity of some of its claims, the fact that god felt emotions such as jealousy, as well as provable scientific findings that didn't match up. Growing up, I always loved science and astronomy in particular. Space simply fascinated me, and I always regarded it as the wonder of god's creation. I was a young Earth creationist growing up, until I started reading more into scientific discoveries, and that all seemed to make so much more sense to me than the creation story. I felt uncomfortable thinking about it, so I didn't.

Until I started seeing all that stuff about the Mayan calendar, and the world ending. Around this time, Scientology was in the news a lot and being exposed for the wrong doings its members had perpetrated, as well as many of its tenants being exposed publicly. I immediately thought of these things as being completely absurd, I thought, only the father knows the hour, and look at these crazy Scientologists and what they believe! But what this caused me to do was take a mirror, and look inward at what *I* believed. It didn't really seem that far off from what I was criticizing. So I prayed. And prayed. And prayed. I asked the lord for guidance and wisdom to discern. But none came. I didn't think about it for a long time, but I decided to look into just where did the bible come from? The answers I got in church didn't fulfill my questions. I wanted real objective academic and definitive answers.

After this, it sort of took a back seat in my mind for a long time. I continued to believe. I found a new church in a new area I moved to. I joined a bible study group, and regularly prayed. I was a diligent tither, as best as I could be.

I decided to change careers in 2010. I had been a nurse almost all of my adult life, but I have always had a passion for computers and technology. I decided to go back to school and get a degree. In college, I had a critical thinking class. I learned all about bad logic and logical fallacies. We learned about circular reasoning, the value of evidence and objectivity. This was meant to teach us how to diagnose computer problems more effectively, and how to program logic. A lot of these classes were based on real world analogies, not just job related ones. I thought my faith was so solid, that not even my new found skills in discerning logic would shake it. Until I objectively applied these skills to my beliefs in an honest fashion. For the first time, my faith was REALLY shaken. Was I committing a logical fallacy all the while when I thought the bible is true because god says so, and god exists because the bible says so, just have faith! Objectively, I was guilty of circular reasoning, as well as a myriad of other logical fallacies as why I believed in the teachings of christianity. Moreover, I was now finding logical fallacies in what OTHER christians thoughts were regarding faith and what the bible teaches. I stopped attending church. I simply did not want to think about the subject any more, but I did continue to pray and ask for wisdom and guidance as I always did. It once again, became a non-issue for me for a long time.

Fast forward again, now to late 2012, with the Mayan apocalypse on the horizon. I was outwardly critical of those that believed in this, but I now had doubts, so I no longer asserted biblical truth. I longed for that rock solid faith I once had, so I thought, maybe if I did some research on biblical consistency, my faith would be renewed. Truth has always been important to me, and the word of god was true, so I could easily brush off one or two inconsistencies as mere mistranslation, or taking verses out of context. So I did my due diligence, and REALLY dived into biblical contradictions. I found sooooooooo many, and I was shocked. Some were small, and I just brushed them off as just different author's perspectives. But some were HUGE. One that really struck me was the 10 commandments. Exodus lists two sets of ten different commandments after Moses had broken the first tablets and gone up for another set of tablets. This was a breaking point. Why had I not ever noticed this before? Why has this never been addressed in church?

As I drove forward, looking at the historicity of the bible, seeing that history simply does not support what the churches and the book itself is saying, I thought to myself, "Surely a god exists, but maybe christianity got it wrong? Maybe my idea of what god is, was simply off track?" As I realized more and more that the bible is indeed fallible, and opened my mind up to other arguments, I turned to the atheist, agnostic, scientific and humanist points of view. What I saw was a lot more intellectual honesty, a lot more consistency, and no shame in simply being honest and saying, "I don't know" rather than trying to fit it all into the perspective that either god did it, or it was somehow a part of his mysterious ways.

Like an avalanche it hit me, I did not choose it, but it was as loud as a shotgun blast in my brain, I simply wasn't buying it anymore. I lost all of my faith all at once, and I realized, I had become an atheist. I could not rationalize in my mind the existence of any god, and I had seen enough to seriously make me doubt any of the claims the bible had made. I continued looking though, at the atheist arguments. I saw the damage the believers did to society. I listened to what they were saying. I read the accounts of abuse not only by the catholic church, but by several different kinds of religions. I looked into the biblical atrocities ordered by YHWH himself. I saw the genocide, the infanticide, rape, murder, slavery, and worst of all, the assertion of surrendering ones free thinking mind to buy into whatever brand of faith was being sold, or suffer the consequences. I reexamined this eternal blackmail ultimatum, and thought to myself, I oppose the very notion of all of these things. Not only had I become an atheist, I was now an anti-theist as well.

Needless to say, this did not bode well with my family. My wife is still a believer, and although I love her dearly, and she isn't very devout. We clash when it comes to matters of faith, or non-faith in my case. My extended family are all believers, Pentecostal as well as some Born-Again non-denominational generic types. I frequently get threatened with hell and damnation, and I am extremely outspoken about atheism on social media, as well as critical of religion in general. I've debated with clergy and church leaders. I make it a point not to deconvert people. I don't see that as my place to do, but they do seem to come to me in droves, often messaging me, or posting a theistic viewpoint on my wall, which often sparks lengthy debates. I am tenacious, and am compulsive in debating their viewpoints back, often going days on end, and I keep going until I no longer get a response from the other party.

I'm not posting this to start a debate, and I most likely will mostly read any comments you wish to leave. Do not think I hate your god. I don't hate anything I don't believe exists, the same way you don't hate Superman or the Easter Bunny. I'm not attempting to troll, or instigate, I simply am curious as to opinions and comments. Threats of hell aren't really going to matter to me, in so much as me threatening Santa Claus is bringing you coal this year, probably wouldn't matter to you. I only value evidence based assertions for my own personal viewpoints, and I govern my thoughts and what it is I DO believe in on rational thinking.

This really isn't me trying to debate you, or deconvert you. It's simply a social experiment fueled by curiosity, as I doubt I would ever be allowed to conduct such an experiment in front of a congregation. I may add more if I feel I've left out any important details, or if you ask for anything else in more detail, as this is a very general and broad summation of my apostasy from christianity and embracing of atheism/anti-theism/secular humanism.

I think this here is what happened, it's been a while, and I haven't heard anything else of their "review":

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Disagreeing_by_deleting

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12-05-2013, 01:30 AM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2013 01:35 AM by Free Thought.)
RE: KMFDM_Kid2000 vs. Christian Forums
Censorship is the way to go!

Fuck those with dissenting opinions!


On the more serious side of this, I do hereby do suggest that all those partaking in an expedition into the Badlands take screenshots of at the very least, their original post in threads they make. More thorough screenshot-ting is recommended, to the point of all posts being stitched into a long image of the thread, if possible.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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