Kansas takes away teacher tenure
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-04-2014, 10:05 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 09:40 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 08:06 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Citation needed.

And how in the world do you quantify performance?

What would you suggest is the cause of our pathetic education system? If not tenure and poor perfirming teachers never getting the axe then what? Curriculum? Teaching methods? DoE bureaucrats?

If you say money I'm leaving this thread and not coming back.

Money.

(is... is he gone?)

American schools in aggregate are pretty middle of the pack so far as the OECD is concerned. They're not the best but they're not the worst. So whence "pathetic"?

If one is supposing American teachers to be magically worse somehow - well, that's quite the claim. Do you have any reason whatsoever to suspect so?

Because there are a lot of other factors which would seem more relevant. American expenditure is, in aggregate, not substantially higher than other OECD nations either. But the problem is that those are aggregate figures. From what I know of the situation in the US, the problems are variance and efficiency. There is a truly massive disparity between schools in the US. Public schools are managed from above and funded from below - that's just idiotic. A one-size-fits-all mindset so far as streaming is concerned isn't terribly productive either.

There isn't one factor involved. There are several. But I very much doubt tenure has any bearing.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2014, 10:05 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
*reads title*
Cool, no more shitty teachers hiding behind tenure.

*reads OP*
The fuck is this shit? Angry

Atir aissom atir imon
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2014, 10:31 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 10:05 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  *reads title*
Cool, no more shitty teachers hiding behind tenure.

*reads OP*
The fuck is this shit? Angry

*reads Im_ryans thoughtful response*

Facepalm

You get an A+ for constructing a fantastic response. Hobo
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2014, 10:38 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 10:31 AM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 10:05 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  *reads title*
Cool, no more shitty teachers hiding behind tenure.

*reads OP*
The fuck is this shit? Angry

*reads Im_ryans thoughtful response*

Facepalm

You get an A+ for constructing a fantastic response. Hobo

Meh, I've been up for 48 hours. You should be happy I'm coherent.

Atir aissom atir imon
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2014, 11:04 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 09:00 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 08:20 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  The past 40 years of abysmal public school performance is citation enough.

No, it really isn't. At all.

Relative performance of individual teachers is not connected to "the past 40 years of abysmal public school performance".

Maaaaaybe the average ability would be - despite there being no reason whatsoever to suspect that Americans are, somehow, as a whole, just plain worse at teaching than, say, their OECD colleagues - but even that would have no bearing on assessing relative performance within the group.

Oh yes it is. You run a classroom, you are responsible for the education of those students THERE. You adminster a school, you are responsible for the education of the students THERE. you administer a school district, you are responsible for the education of the students THERE.

ALL of the above mentioned people are responsible for this problem. As I have said, spending on education has doubles in this time, but student performance has not, so money is not the problem. The people running these schools and the teacher's unions ARE. And they should be held accountable for this poor performance when they demonstrate it in the form or disciplinary action, including termination of employment.

Coffee is for closers, cljr. You can't play in the man's game, get out and make room for those who can.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2014, 11:08 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 09:00 AM)cjlr Wrote:  No, it really isn't. At all.

Relative performance of individual teachers is not connected to "the past 40 years of abysmal public school performance".

Maaaaaybe the average ability would be - despite there being no reason whatsoever to suspect that Americans are, somehow, as a whole, just plain worse at teaching than, say, their OECD colleagues - but even that would have no bearing on assessing relative performance within the group.

Oh yes it is. You run a classroom, you are responsible for the education of those students THERE. You adminster a school, you are responsible for the education of the students THERE. you administer a school district, you are responsible for the education of the students THERE.

ALL of the above mentioned people are responsible for this problem. As I have said, spending on education has doubles in this time, but student performance has not, so money is not the problem. The people running these schools and the teacher's unions ARE. And they should be held accountable for this poor performance when they demonstrate it in the form or disciplinary action, including termination of employment.

Coffee is for closers, cljr. You can't play in the man's game, get out and make room for those who can.

Gonna need some citation on the horrible numbers. Cause American schools are in the median range as is the spending.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2014, 11:13 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 08:58 AM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 08:20 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  The past 40 years of abysmal public school performance is citation enough.

"The past 40 years of abysmal public school performance is citation enough."


That sounds like a regurgitated talking point. So, lets look at the data.


[Image: NAEP-longterm-Black-math-ss09-13.gif]

The image shows scores from the last 40 years, and they have gone up, especially when looking at the line for black students. That doesn't equate with your talking point.

And those charter schools that are going to save education? Let's look at data from New York:

about 25% of charter school students rated proficient in English, compared with 26% of traditional public school students. In math, 35% of charter school students rated proficient, compared with 30% of traditional public school students.

Are there charter schools that do extremely well? Of course! Some of these are magnet schools that specialize in certain areas. You also have to be accepted to these schools. The regular Joe isn't going to make the cut.

Overall, the data shows that charter schools are no better than public schools. Several states have tried the voucher experiment in particular cities. They have attained very little success.

THIS DATA IS USELESS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE TESTS GIVEN OR HOW IT COMPARES WITH SCORES FROM SUTDENTS EDUCATED IN OTHER WESTERN COUNTRIES.

BUT EVEN BASED ON THIS INFO, A 200% INCREASE IN SPENDING ONLY RESULTS IN A 12 POINT INCREASE???????

It's more band aids for poor performance. More justifying lazy administrators who don't do their job properly. Or bad instructors who can't teach. Or a school system as a whole which has lost its way.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 11:13 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 08:58 AM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  
"The past 40 years of abysmal public school performance is citation enough."


That sounds like a regurgitated talking point. So, lets look at the data.


[Image: NAEP-longterm-Black-math-ss09-13.gif]

The image shows scores from the last 40 years, and they have gone up, especially when looking at the line for black students. That doesn't equate with your talking point.

And those charter schools that are going to save education? Let's look at data from New York:

about 25% of charter school students rated proficient in English, compared with 26% of traditional public school students. In math, 35% of charter school students rated proficient, compared with 30% of traditional public school students.

Are there charter schools that do extremely well? Of course! Some of these are magnet schools that specialize in certain areas. You also have to be accepted to these schools. The regular Joe isn't going to make the cut.

Overall, the data shows that charter schools are no better than public schools. Several states have tried the voucher experiment in particular cities. They have attained very little success.

THIS DATA IS USELESS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE TESTS GIVEN OR HOW IT COMPARES WITH SCORES FROM SUTDENTS EDUCATED IN OTHER WESTERN COUNTRIES.

BUT EVEN BASED ON THIS INFO, A 200% INCREASE IN SPENDING ONLY RESULTS IN A 12 POINT INCREASE???????

It's more band aids for poor performance. More justifying lazy administrators who don't do their job properly. Or bad instructors who can't teach. Or a school system as a whole which has lost its way.

Are you high? Are you not accounting for inflation? If anything less money is being spent now for higher results thus invalidating your position.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2014, 11:20 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 11:16 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 11:13 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  THIS DATA IS USELESS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE TESTS GIVEN OR HOW IT COMPARES WITH SCORES FROM SUTDENTS EDUCATED IN OTHER WESTERN COUNTRIES.

BUT EVEN BASED ON THIS INFO, A 200% INCREASE IN SPENDING ONLY RESULTS IN A 12 POINT INCREASE???????

It's more band aids for poor performance. More justifying lazy administrators who don't do their job properly. Or bad instructors who can't teach. Or a school system as a whole which has lost its way.

Are you high? Are you not accounting for inflation? If anything less money is being spent now for higher results thus invalidating your position.

That DOES account for infation.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2014, 11:22 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 11:08 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Oh yes it is. You run a classroom, you are responsible for the education of those students THERE. You adminster a school, you are responsible for the education of the students THERE. you administer a school district, you are responsible for the education of the students THERE.

ALL of the above mentioned people are responsible for this problem. As I have said, spending on education has doubles in this time, but student performance has not, so money is not the problem. The people running these schools and the teacher's unions ARE. And they should be held accountable for this poor performance when they demonstrate it in the form or disciplinary action, including termination of employment.

Coffee is for closers, cljr. You can't play in the man's game, get out and make room for those who can.

Gonna need some citation on the horrible numbers. Cause American schools are in the median range as is the spending.

Well here's on done on the PISA tests.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/educat...d=all&_r=0

"PISA scores are on a scale, with 500 as the average. Two-thirds of students in participating countries score between 400 and 600. On the math test last year, students in Shanghai scored 600, in Singapore 562, in Germany 513, and in the United States 487.

In reading, Shanghai students scored 556, ahead of second-place Korea with 539. The United States scored 500 and came in 17th, putting it on par with students in the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Germany, France, the United Kingdom and several other countries.

In science, Shanghai students scored 575. In second place was Finland, where the average score was 554. The United States scored 502 — in 23rd place — with a performance indistinguishable from Poland, Ireland, Norway, France and several other countries."

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: