Kansas takes away teacher tenure
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09-04-2014, 11:28 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 11:22 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 11:08 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Gonna need some citation on the horrible numbers. Cause American schools are in the median range as is the spending.

Well here's on done on the PISA tests.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/educat...d=all&_r=0

"PISA scores are on a scale, with 500 as the average. Two-thirds of students in participating countries score between 400 and 600. On the math test last year, students in Shanghai scored 600, in Singapore 562, in Germany 513, and in the United States 487.

In reading, Shanghai students scored 556, ahead of second-place Korea with 539. The United States scored 500 and came in 17th, putting it on par with students in the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Germany, France, the United Kingdom and several other countries.

In science, Shanghai students scored 575. In second place was Finland, where the average score was 554. The United States scored 502 — in 23rd place — with a performance indistinguishable from Poland, Ireland, Norway, France and several other countries."

Isn't it odd that PISA lists scores from Shanghai and not China? When do we get to list scores from a certain city that is much wealthier and better educated? That would make our numbers look better. If China actually gave scores from the whole country, they would perform horribly, as the money they put into education is very low in many of its regions.

That's like the United States providing data on athletic ability, and only using Texas football powerhouses in its summaries. Manipulation of data.

http://world.time.com/2013/12/04/china-i...gs-system/
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09-04-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
I would like to throw out there that poor student results aren't solely based on teachers or school administration or even dollars spent.

Less and less, in this country, is the emphasis placed on education and parental involvement is often no more than getting the kid up for school.

There are multiple layers to the problem of education in this country.

I can see how tenure would help a teacher feel more secure in their position and if it's earned by something other than time served, I am okay with that.

But I have also encountered bad teachers, violent, hateful teachers that are allowed to continue in their tenured position simply because it's easier on admin to let them ride it out till retirement and just run damage control when necessary.

This isn't as simple as yes/no.

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09-04-2014, 11:34 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Oh yes it is. You run a classroom, you are responsible for the education of those students THERE. You adminster a school, you are responsible for the education of the students THERE. you administer a school district, you are responsible for the education of the students THERE.

I'm not seeing where this has anything to do with individual teachers.

At best such criteria might be used to compare how people work with what they have to work with. The biggest issue in the US is the disparity in what they have to work with.

(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ALL of the above mentioned people are responsible for this problem.

You haven't even demonstrated compelling evidence of a problem. The aformentioned comparisons run by the OECD place the United States a little below average when acknowledging the margin of error (which is about +/- 10, on the PISA). That's not a "problem". Nor is aggregate spending incommensurately higher - but I don't have fine-grained data on the subject (just "education as a portion of GDP").

(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  As I have said, spending on education has doubles in this time, but student performance has not, so money is not the problem.

How does that increase compare to other indexed spending trends in comparable nations? I don't have that data, do you?

How has that spending been distributed? I don't have that data, do you?

I find it plausible that aggregate spending has doubled. To suggest this means that every student has had twice the amount spent on them is facetious.

(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  The people running these schools and the teacher's unions ARE. And they should be held accountable for this poor performance when they demonstrate it in the form or disciplinary action, including termination of employment.

I'm still not seeing where this has anything to do with individual teachers.

This goes back to my earlier question:
How is performance quantized?

Is it by year-over-year performance in place, as judged by standardised test results? That's far too variable to be reliable. Is it by comparison between jurisdictions? That's far too variable to be reliable. What is it?

(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Coffee is for closers, cljr. You can't play in the man's game, get out and make room for those who can.

Umm, wut?

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09-04-2014, 11:35 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 11:30 AM)Anjele Wrote:  I would like to throw out there that poor student results aren't solely based on teachers or school administration or even dollars spent.

Less and less, in this country, is the emphasis placed on education and parental involvement is often no more than getting the kid up for school.

There are multiple layers to the problem of education in this country.

I can see how tenure would help a teacher feel more secure in their position and if it's earned by something other than time served, I am okay with that.

But I have also encountered bad teachers, violent, hateful teachers that are allowed to continue in their tenured position simply because it's easier on admin to let them ride it out till retirement and just run damage control when necessary.

This isn't as simple as yes/no.

Anj, I was about to say something similar.

With lack of parent involvement and in a country that is placing less and less value on frivolous things such as science and math its not just the school systems fault.
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09-04-2014, 11:40 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 11:28 AM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  Isn't it odd that PISA lists scores from Shanghai and not China? When do we get to list scores from a certain city that is much wealthier and better educated? That would make our numbers look better. If China actually gave scores from the whole country, they would perform horribly, as the money they put into education is very low in many of its regions.

If you scored only the richest and whitest American schools (a reasonable proxy for the situation in, say, Shanghai or Hong Kong vis-a-vis China as a whole) they'd also get about 550 (ie, top the PISA charts).

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09-04-2014, 11:42 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 11:30 AM)Anjele Wrote:  I would like to throw out there that poor student results aren't solely based on teachers or school administration or even dollars spent.

Less and less, in this country, is the emphasis placed on education and parental involvement is often no more than getting the kid up for school.

There are multiple layers to the problem of education in this country.

I can see how tenure would help a teacher feel more secure in their position and if it's earned by something other than time served, I am okay with that.

But I have also encountered bad teachers, violent, hateful teachers that are allowed to continue in their tenured position simply because it's easier on admin to let them ride it out till retirement and just run damage control when necessary.

This isn't as simple as yes/no.

This.

I come from a long history of teachers. There are currently about 12 in my extended family that teach everything from kindergarten to high school. I know a very large number of teachers that are in it because they love doing it, or they want to educate people and care about spreading knowledge. I also know several teachers that are in it because once they got tenure, it's an easy paycheck and they get summers off, paid.

The latter are certainly not the norm, but they do exist, and in much larger numbers than should. My high school history teacher, biology teacher, and english teachers were all examples of the latter. Several times, parents tried to get those teachers fired because they weren't actually teaching us anything. The history teacher's class consisted of him putting questions, with the answers on the overhead projector and telling us to take notes from it. The tests were then open note, open book, open study guide so it was next to impossible to fail. The biology teacher wasn't much better, and the english teacher just had us watch movies that were based on great works of literature. Dodgy

I remember a kid confronting the history teacher once. His response was something along the lines of "I've been here 20 years. I'd have to punch you in the face and throw you through the window in order to get fired. Stop bitching and start writing." Hobo

No, I don't think we should throw tenure out the window. Teaching is a difficult and often thankless job that takes a special person to do well. I DO however, think we need to end automatic tenure for anyone who manages to not get fired for a few years. I don't have all the answers, but screaming at each other and being completely immobile in your position isn't going to help us come to ANY of the right conclusions.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

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09-04-2014, 11:45 AM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2014 11:48 AM by cjlr.)
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 11:35 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  With lack of parent involvement and in a country that is placing less and less value on frivolous things such as science and math its not just the school systems fault.

Is it possible to quantify that? Or at least run comparisons to other countries?

Canada, for example, is very rarely accused of being too different from the United States. We spend roughly the same amount (proportionally) on education. We're certainly just as lazy, disengaged, and shortsighted. And yet we have significantly higher scores on these sorts of international comparisons.

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09-04-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
Quote:I'm not seeing where this has anything to do with individual teachers.

At best such criteria might be used to compare how people work with what they have to work with. The biggest issue in the US is the disparity in what they have to work with.

Because everyone who operates the education system is responsible and should be held accountable for it when it fails. If the problem in a school's performance is traced down to a few bad teachers, they get fired and replaced. Same with a principle, a superintendent, etc.

(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ALL of the above mentioned people are responsible for this problem.

Quote:You haven't even demonstrated compelling evidence of a problem. The aformentioned comparisons run by the OECD place the United States a little below average when acknowledging the margin of error (which is about +/- 10, on the PISA). That's not a "problem". Nor is aggregate spending incommensurately higher - but I don't have fine-grained data on the subject (just "education as a portion of GDP").

See post #50

(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  As I have said, spending on education has doubles in this time, but student performance has not, so money is not the problem.

Quote:How does that increase compare to other indexed spending trends in comparable nations? I don't have that data, do you?

How has that spending been distributed? I don't have that data, do you?

I find it plausible that aggregate spending has doubled. To suggest this means that every student has had twice the amount spent on them is facetious.

Didn't take long for me to find it.

http://neatoday.org/2013/07/09/u-s-educa...enefiting/

(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  The people running these schools and the teacher's unions ARE. And they should be held accountable for this poor performance when they demonstrate it in the form or disciplinary action, including termination of employment.

Quote:I'm still not seeing where this has anything to do with individual teachers.

This goes back to my earlier question:
How is performance quantized?

Is it by year-over-year performance in place, as judged by standardised test results? That's far too variable to be reliable. Is it by comparison between jurisdictions? That's far too variable to be reliable. What is it?

If your students aren't learning and failing tests, if you cannot maintain classroom order, and if your a boring, ungifted instructor I would can you on these metrics and replace you. Simple as that.
(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Coffee is for closers, cljr. You can't play in the man's game, get out and make room for those who can.

Quote:Umm, wut?

You don't get the refernece becasue you didn't read any of my other posts and only want to have a pissing contest with me on this. If you had done otherwise, you would understand the reference.

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09-04-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 11:45 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 11:35 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  With lack of parent involvement and in a country that is placing less and less value on frivolous things such as science and math its not just the school systems fault.

Is it possible to quantify that? Or at least run comparisons to other countries?

Canada, for example, is very rarely accused of being too different from the United States. We spend roughly the same amount (proportionally) on education. We're certainly just as lazy, disengaged, and shortsighted. And yet we have significantly higher scores on these sorts of international comparisons.

I cant find any comparisons against other countries but I've seen a few papers on how parent involvement is very important in education. For example.

http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/FamInvolve/execsumm.html

http://educationnorthwest.org/webfm_send/567

http://www.weac.org/pdf/2011-12/Personal...bility.pdf

I do admit its just a bias opinion of mine that parents are not involved enough however.
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09-04-2014, 11:59 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
In about 5th grade my son, who was consistently an A student, came home one quarter with awful grades. At no point was I contacted by anyone that his progress was slipping. When I went to the school to talk to the two teachers for that grade, I was told they didn't contact me because most parents don't care.

WTF...give me a chance to prove I am not one of those parents at least.

Education is a group effort. Admin, teachers, parents, and kids all have to work together. Except in extreme cases, the blame cannot be placed on just one factor.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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