Kansas takes away teacher tenure
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09-04-2014, 12:38 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2014 12:46 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 11:52 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:I'm not seeing where this has anything to do with individual teachers.

At best such criteria might be used to compare how people work with what they have to work with. The biggest issue in the US is the disparity in what they have to work with.

Because everyone who operates the education system is responsible and should be held accountable for it when it fails. If the problem in a school's performance is traced down to a few bad teachers, they get fired and replaced. Same with a principle, a superintendent, etc.

Yes. I agree.

How do you trace performance to a few bad teachers?

I've now asked several times how performance is to be judged.

(09-04-2014 11:52 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ALL of the above mentioned people are responsible for this problem.

Quote:You haven't even demonstrated compelling evidence of a problem. The aformentioned comparisons run by the OECD place the United States a little below average when acknowledging the margin of error (which is about +/- 10, on the PISA). That's not a "problem". Nor is aggregate spending incommensurately higher - but I don't have fine-grained data on the subject (just "education as a portion of GDP").

See post #50

Being average is not a problem.

(09-04-2014 11:52 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  As I have said, spending on education has doubles in this time, but student performance has not, so money is not the problem.

Quote:How does that increase compare to other indexed spending trends in comparable nations? I don't have that data, do you?

How has that spending been distributed? I don't have that data, do you?

I find it plausible that aggregate spending has doubled. To suggest this means that every student has had twice the amount spent on them is facetious.

Didn't take long for me to find it.

http://neatoday.org/2013/07/09/u-s-educa...enefiting/

There are several caveats to the article's figure. First, that it includes expenditure on tertiary education. I don't need to tell you that's a very different issue. Second that it includes private expenditure - which is unrelated to the public school system in question.

The United States is not an outlier in primary and secondary education expenditure, as per the actual data given in the cited OECD report.

In fact, relative expenditure per student on primary and secondary education (ie, the levels which PISA actually tests at) is exactly average in the United States when adjusting for per-capita GDP beforehand. Only in tertiary expenditure is the USA the outlier.

(09-04-2014 11:52 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  The people running these schools and the teacher's unions ARE. And they should be held accountable for this poor performance when they demonstrate it in the form or disciplinary action, including termination of employment.

Quote:I'm still not seeing where this has anything to do with individual teachers.

This goes back to my earlier question:
How is performance quantized?

Is it by year-over-year performance in place, as judged by standardised test results? That's far too variable to be reliable. Is it by comparison between jurisdictions? That's far too variable to be reliable. What is it?

If your students aren't learning and failing tests, if you cannot maintain classroom order, and if your a boring, ungifted instructor I would can you on these metrics and replace you. Simple as that.

The former two are terrible criteria, as there are so many other factors at work that to pile accountability on only the most superficial is a very facile solution.

The latter amounts to no more than saying "someone who is bad at their job is someone who does their job badly". That's a trivial statement.

(09-04-2014 11:52 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 11:04 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Coffee is for closers, cljr. You can't play in the man's game, get out and make room for those who can.

Quote:Umm, wut?

You don't get the refernece becasue you didn't read any of my other posts...

It's the line from the film. So what?

(and, you know that movie's about how the pressure to succeed destroyed a man, right?)

(09-04-2014 11:52 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ... and only want to have a pissing contest with me on this.

Not really, no.

(09-04-2014 11:52 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  If you had done otherwise, you would understand the reference.

What I asked you was whether you could be any more specific about evaluating performance. Since there are tons of significant factors in students' performance besides any individual teacher, this is a very difficult thing to do. Obviously I agree in principle that the worst performers in a given job should not be retained. Meaningful criticism needs to be a heck of a lot more substantive than that.

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09-04-2014, 01:11 PM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
I've explained this to you three times already, cljr. The metrics are based on student performance. And we are NOT seeing the performance from our student and definitely not seeing it in a manner which justifies increasing spending on education.

How many student from a certain classroom with a certain teacher passed a test? Many? Is this consistent over the semester? Yes give them a raise! No? Reprimand them, cut their pay until they improve or fire them and replace them with people who do work?

None of this is special to public education. Every job you will ever work demands this. As such education does not receive a pass. There is no other metric besides whether your boss feels you are a good worker or a bad one. In the case of a government job like public school teacher, administrator, etc, we the people are the boss and I'd dare say a school system which turns out students with a diploma they can't read is an terminable offense for the individuals responsible for doing so.

Average is unacceptable. Not in the 21st Century in a world which the quality of a society is based on high technology, medical science and a literate, educated public. This is why the US is in decline and China and India are on the rise. In today's world you had better be making a superior grade and turn out students who do or you are not meriting further increases in funding. Just like the US should not buy an poor performing F-35 fighter jet, so to the taxpayer should not be forced to buy lousy public education and should demand the lousy teachers and brueaucrats who can't or wont do their job go. If the US is indeed number one, we should not tolerate mediocrity in anything we spend a tax dollar on.

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09-04-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  I've explained this to you three times already, cljr. The metrics are based on student performance. And we are NOT seeing the performance from our student and definitely not seeing it in a manner which justifies increasing spending on education.

I've told you where and why the data do not support that claim.

Education spending in the United States (specifically, public expenditure on primary and secondary education) is not significantly above average.

Academic achievement in the United States (specifically, for students in primary and secondary schools) is not significantly below average.

So what's this "problem"?

That things could be better? That's never not true. But, okay, I guess.
(the problem I would stress is internal disparity)

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  How many student from a certain classroom with a certain teacher passed a test? Many? Is this consistent over the semester? Yes give them a raise! No? Reprimand them, cut their pay until they improve or fire them and replace them with people who do work?

Except there are so many outside factors that that is woefully inadequate.

If a highway overpass develops stress fractures, you don't reprimand the architect if it turns out the contractor used bad cement. That wouldn't make any sense.

You can't conclude everything to be based on one variable if you can't control for the other variables. That's making a pathetic shambles of statistics.

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  None of this is special to public education. Every job you will ever work demands this. As such education does not receive a pass.

Did anyone say otherwise?

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  There is no other metric besides whether your boss feels you are a good worker or a bad one.

Which isn't quite true, is it? For many professions in many jurisdictions it isn't just how the boss feels; performance needs to be quantified.

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  In the case of a government job like public school teacher, administrator, etc, we the people are the boss and I'd dare say a school system which turns out students with a diploma they can't read is an terminable offense for the individuals responsible for doing so.

Ah. So we're talking about high school graduates who can't read now? Do they occur in the United States at higher relative rate? Is this a real phenomenon, or a perceived one? The data provided earlier certainly don't indicate any such widespread situation.

Is a teacher to be held accountable for the performance of their students even when they work in a low budget area populated by poor and disadvantaged students from fucked up family backgrounds? In what universe is the teacher the one to blame for their not getting the same test results out of them as from the rich suburban kids a couple miles away?

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Average is unacceptable.

Average among OECD nations is a far cry from average globally.

Again: can things be better? Yes. That's always true. Is primary and secondary public education in the United States actually bad by any reasonable measure? No.

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Not in the 21st Century in a world which the quality of a society is based on high technology, medical science and a literate, educated public. This is why the US is in decline and China and India are on the rise.

Relative decline, because all else being equal being outnumbered four to one still actually matters. There are more 95th percentile IQs in China then there are people in Canada. That's just statistics.

Do you think the average Chinese has anywhere near the educational opportunities of the average American? Do you think the average Indian does? Do you think they ever will, given the long-institutionalised brain drain to the already developed world?

But don't worry too much. The Chinese are already scared of Africa. Welcome to the post-colonial era.

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  In today's world you had better be making a superior grade and turn out students who do or you are not meriting further increases in funding. Just like the US should not buy an poor performing F-35 fighter jet, so to the taxpayer should not be forced to buy lousy public education and should demand the lousy teachers and brueaucrats who can't or wont do their job go.

And there you go saying lousy again.

When the statistics you yourself referred to say average.

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  If the US is indeed number one, we should not tolerate mediocrity in anything we spend a tax dollar on.

I guess this is really the core issue, isn't it?

No one can be the best at everything forever. The mid-20th century was the biggest gift ever to American exceptionalism, but that era's over. Deal with it.

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09-04-2014, 02:36 PM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 01:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  I've explained this to you three times already, cljr. The metrics are based on student performance. And we are NOT seeing the performance from our student and definitely not seeing it in a manner which justifies increasing spending on education.

I've told you where and why the data do not support that claim.

Education spending in the United States (specifically, public expenditure on primary and secondary education) is not significantly above average.

Academic achievement in the United States (specifically, for students in primary and secondary schools) is not significantly below average.

So what's this "problem"?

That things could be better? That's never not true. But, okay, I guess.
(the problem I would stress is internal disparity)

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  How many student from a certain classroom with a certain teacher passed a test? Many? Is this consistent over the semester? Yes give them a raise! No? Reprimand them, cut their pay until they improve or fire them and replace them with people who do work?

Except there are so many outside factors that that is woefully inadequate.

If a highway overpass develops stress fractures, you don't reprimand the architect if it turns out the contractor used bad cement. That wouldn't make any sense.

You can't conclude everything to be based on one variable if you can't control for the other variables. That's making a pathetic shambles of statistics.

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  None of this is special to public education. Every job you will ever work demands this. As such education does not receive a pass.

Did anyone say otherwise?

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  There is no other metric besides whether your boss feels you are a good worker or a bad one.

Which isn't quite true, is it? For many professions in many jurisdictions it isn't just how the boss feels; performance needs to be quantified.

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  In the case of a government job like public school teacher, administrator, etc, we the people are the boss and I'd dare say a school system which turns out students with a diploma they can't read is an terminable offense for the individuals responsible for doing so.

Ah. So we're talking about high school graduates who can't read now? Do they occur in the United States at higher relative rate? Is this a real phenomenon, or a perceived one? The data provided earlier certainly don't indicate any such widespread situation.

Is a teacher to be held accountable for the performance of their students even when they work in a low budget area populated by poor and disadvantaged students from fucked up family backgrounds? In what universe is the teacher the one to blame for their not getting the same test results out of them as from the rich suburban kids a couple miles away?

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Average is unacceptable.

Average among OECD nations is a far cry from average globally.

Again: can things be better? Yes. That's always true. Is primary and secondary public education in the United States actually bad by any reasonable measure? No.

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Not in the 21st Century in a world which the quality of a society is based on high technology, medical science and a literate, educated public. This is why the US is in decline and China and India are on the rise.

Relative decline, because all else being equal being outnumbered four to one still actually matters. There are more 95th percentile IQs in China then there are people in Canada. That's just statistics.

Do you think the average Chinese has anywhere near the educational opportunities of the average American? Do you think the average Indian does? Do you think they ever will, given the long-institutionalised brain drain to the already developed world?

But don't worry too much. The Chinese are already scared of Africa. Welcome to the post-colonial era.

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  In today's world you had better be making a superior grade and turn out students who do or you are not meriting further increases in funding. Just like the US should not buy an poor performing F-35 fighter jet, so to the taxpayer should not be forced to buy lousy public education and should demand the lousy teachers and brueaucrats who can't or wont do their job go.

And there you go saying lousy again.

When the statistics you yourself referred to say average.

(09-04-2014 01:11 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  If the US is indeed number one, we should not tolerate mediocrity in anything we spend a tax dollar on.

I guess this is really the core issue, isn't it?

No one can be the best at everything forever. The mid-20th century was the biggest gift ever to American exceptionalism, but that era's over. Deal with it.

Wrong. Dead wrong.

Quote:I've told you where and why the data do not support that claim.

Education spending in the United States (specifically, public expenditure on primary and secondary education) is not significantly above average.

Academic achievement in the United States (specifically, for students in primary and secondary schools) is not significantly below average.

So what's this "problem"?

That things could be better? That's never not true. But, okay, I guess.
(the problem I would stress is internal disparity)

The problem is accepting mediocrity and paying a fortune for it versus maintaining an exceptional system. China and India spend about 33% less per student, yet maintain better scores than American students do. With your loser mentality we piss away money on a system wich only yields marginal results instead of fixing it. With that kind of an attiude, it's no wonder US schools do average or poorly.

And as our educational advantage slips away, expect our workforce to do so as well. No one is going to hire a US firm or local employees when they can get better quality work overseas. In a 21st Century world you had better come into it with you game face on and do a superb job or someone else will.

Quote:Except there are so many outside factors that that is woefully inadequate.

If a highway overpass develops stress fractures, you don't reprimand the architect if it turns out the contractor used bad cement. That wouldn't make any sense.

You can't conclude everything to be based on one variable if you can't control for the other variables. That's making a pathetic shambles of statistics.

You obviously can't read my posts and spoon feeding them to you like a little baby seems the only solution.

From an older post - You run a classroom, you are responsible for the education of those students THERE. You adminster a school, you are responsible for the education of the students THERE. you administer a school district, you are responsible for the education of the students THERE.

Which means,

If the problem is traceable to the teacher of a class - fire the teacher
If the problem is traceable to the principal - fire the principal
If the problem is traceable to the superintendant - fire the superintendant
If the problem is traceable to all of the above people - fire all three of them.

Quote:Did anyone say otherwise?

You're more or less implying this by criticizing the decision to fire poor performing teachers or other school personnel. So do the teacher's unions.

Quote:Which isn't quite true, is it? For many professions in many jurisdictions it isn't just how the boss feels; performance needs to be quantified.

Bullshit. Your job is based on performance and what you deliver. If I fail to use good engineering practices at work, I get fired for it. If a police officer does his job in an incompetent manner, he gets fired for it. If a teacher turns out crops of poor performing student year after year, he should be fired. That's life. And making it otherwise just creates a haven for the average, for slackers, and for other problematic people.

Quote:Ah. So we're talking about high school graduates who can't read now? Do they occur in the United States at higher relative rate? Is this a real phenomenon, or a perceived one? The data provided earlier certainly don't indicate any such widespread situation.

Is a teacher to be held accountable for the performance of their students even when they work in a low budget area populated by poor and disadvantaged students from fucked up family backgrounds? In what universe is the teacher the one to blame for their not getting the same test results out of them as from the rich suburban kids a couple miles away?

For one student, no. When multiple students do poorly on tests and further investigation turns up most students felt ignored, sultified, and spent most of the classroom time disrupted or harassed by disruptive students, and this happens year after year, then yes, it is their fault and they need to be replaced by people who will do the job better. And the principal, who's responsible for the staff should be disciplined for allowing this to go on as well.

[quote]Relative decline, because all else being equal being outnumbered four to one still actually matters. There are more 95th percentile IQs in China then there are people in Canada. That's just statistics.

Do you think the average Chinese has anywhere near the educational opportunities of the average American? Do you think the average Indian does? Do you think they ever will, given the long-institutionalised brain drain to the already developed world?

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09-04-2014, 03:34 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2014 03:47 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Wrong. Dead wrong.

Okay then.

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:I've told you where and why the data do not support that claim.

Education spending in the United States (specifically, public expenditure on primary and secondary education) is not significantly above average.

Academic achievement in the United States (specifically, for students in primary and secondary schools) is not significantly below average.

So what's this "problem"?

That things could be better? That's never not true. But, okay, I guess.
(the problem I would stress is internal disparity)

The problem is accepting mediocrity and paying a fortune for it versus maintaining an exceptional system.

Except neither mediocrity nor paying a fortune is anywhere evident in the actual statistics. So there's that.

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  China and India spend about 33% less per student, yet maintain better scores than American students do.

Citation needed.

PISA data you provided list only Hong Kong, Macau, and Shanghai as Chinese data points. On what basis is your evaluation of the rest of China founded? On what basis is your evaluation of India founded, seeing as it is not listed in any OECD data?

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  With your loser mentality...

Uh, mate?

WTF?

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ... we piss away money on a system wich only yields marginal results instead of fixing it. With that kind of an attiude, it's no wonder US schools do average or poorly.

Yes.

As someone who is not even American, this is all my fault.

The part where American public education funding per capita is exactly commensurate with GDP per capita as compared to other OECD nations, which was attested in the very report you just cited would seem to - just a little - interfere with the narrative you're trying to spin.

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  And as our educational advantage slips away...

As it, to some extent, must. Do you not see that?

The rest of the world will catch up in relative terms. The singular advantages the United States possessed during the middle part of the 20th century no longer exist.

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ... expect our workforce to do so as well. No one is going to hire a US firm or local employees when they can get better quality work overseas. In a 21st Century world you had better come into it with you game face on and do a superb job or someone else will.

Outsourcing isn't good labour, it's just cheap labour.

Globalisation of labour markets being, mind you, a totally different issue to relative academic performance among students of primary and secondary public education.

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Except there are so many outside factors that that is woefully inadequate.

If a highway overpass develops stress fractures, you don't reprimand the architect if it turns out the contractor used bad cement. That wouldn't make any sense.

You can't conclude everything to be based on one variable if you can't control for the other variables. That's making a pathetic shambles of statistics.

You obviously can't read my posts and spoon feeding them to you like a little baby seems the only solution.

No need to be an asshole.

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  From an older post - You run a classroom, you are responsible for the education of those students THERE. You adminster a school, you are responsible for the education of the students THERE. you administer a school district, you are responsible for the education of the students THERE.

Which means,

If the problem is traceable to the teacher of a class - fire the teacher
If the problem is traceable to the principal - fire the principal
If the problem is traceable to the superintendant - fire the superintendant
If the problem is traceable to all of the above people - fire all three of them.

And if the problem can't be traced?
And if the problem is traceable to none of the above?

I never disagreed with the principle. In fact, I explicitly agreed with it. But merely stating that on its own is totally inadequate.

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Did anyone say otherwise?

You're more or less implying this by criticizing the decision to fire poor performing teachers or other school personnel. So do the teacher's unions.

No, you seem to be convincing yourself I mean that.

What I actually said was that real solutions to a highly variable and complex problem need to be more sophisticated than "fire the bad people".

If we consider two surgeons, who practise in different cities, one of whom deals with twice as many obese patients, and we compare them based on how many of their patients die of heart attacks, guess what? The one treating all the fat guys is going to see a lot more of them go.

The solution in that case is not "fire the doctor".

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Which isn't quite true, is it? For many professions in many jurisdictions it isn't just how the boss feels; performance needs to be quantified.

Bullshit. Your job is based on performance and what you deliver.

You know "wrongful dismissal" is a thing, right?

Under most employment contracts in most of the world one cannot fire at will.

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  If I fail to use good engineering practices at work, I get fired for it.

How are those practices assessed?

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  If a police officer does his job in an incompetent manner, he gets fired for it.

How is his performance assessed?

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  If a teacher turns out crops of poor performing student year after year, he should be fired.

And as I explicitly said multiple times - there are far more factors involved in such a scenario than just the teacher in question.

A single teacher is not a magic cure-all for every other possible negative variable. Put the best teacher in the world in a bad enough situation and the kids will do poorly. And firing his ass won't make them do any better under the next guy.

(09-04-2014 02:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Ah. So we're talking about high school graduates who can't read now? Do they occur in the United States at higher relative rate? Is this a real phenomenon, or a perceived one? The data provided earlier certainly don't indicate any such widespread situation.

Is a teacher to be held accountable for the performance of their students even when they work in a low budget area populated by poor and disadvantaged students from fucked up family backgrounds? In what universe is the teacher the one to blame for their not getting the same test results out of them as from the rich suburban kids a couple miles away?

For one student, no. When multiple students do poorly on tests and further investigation turns up most students felt ignored, sultified, and spent most of the classroom time disrupted or harassed by disruptive students, and this happens year after year, then yes, it is their fault and they need to be replaced by people who will do the job better. And the principal, who's responsible for the staff should be disciplined for allowing this to go on as well.

Okay. You like firing people.

Just because that's your hammer doesn't mean everything's a nail.

I never said we shouldn't use hammers. I am trying to tell you not to hammer in screws.

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09-04-2014, 05:12 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2014 05:16 PM by Chas.)
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 09:40 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 08:06 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Citation needed.

And how in the world do you quantify performance?


What would you suggest is the cause of our pathetic education system? If not tenure and poor perfirming teachers never getting the axe then what? Curriculum? Teaching methods? DoE bureaucrats?

If you say money I'm leaving this thread and not coming back.

Gutless administrators, stupid school committees, lack of adhering to standards, absurd academic educational ideas, undereducated teachers. Drinking Beverage

Poor schools usually have some or all of those problems, and lack of money as well.

However, most school systems are doing OK and some are superlative.

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09-04-2014, 05:43 PM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
cjlr,

Your replies have been fantastic. I always appreciate individuals who can use hard statistics, logic, and reasoning.

Teaching isn't like other jobs in the slightest. If teaching was like other jobs--for example managing a restaurant:

As a manager of a pizza place, you are given 20 employees. Some of these employees are fantastic--always ready to work and have a great attitude. Some of these employees can't even get their minds right to make pizza because they were up all night listening to mom and dad fight again. Some of these employees have emotional/behavioral disabilities and don't do well in high stress situations. Some of these employees have been prescribed medication, and may or may not have taken it that day. Some of these employees are overweight, or gay, or have really bad acne and cant focus on pizza making because all the social issues that they are dealing with are on their mind. Some of these employees show up a few times a week and always have an excuse why they are absent or tardy. Some of these employees don't speak english, and no one at the restaurant is bilingual. Some of these employees have been to 4 different pizza places in the last two years because dad found a new girlfriend and moved and sent them back to mom, who then moved to live with her new boyfriend, so they were sent to live with grandpa.

Now, these employees come into your store and you get to train them for 50 minutes a day, 5 days a week. Some catch on really quick, and some just can't stop picking their nose for 5 minutes--you fire this disgusting dude. A few didn't show up to work on time, so they interrupt training as they come in and time has to be spent getting them caught up--they get written up and fired later in the week when it happens again. One of the employees with a behavioral disorder starts kicking another employee because he didn't like the look he gave to him--he is told to come home and not come back to work tomorrow. Another employee raises his hand and says "I dont believe in pizza making! All pizzas that are here, have been here since the beginning!" Then, that employee refuses to make pizzas--he is fired for not doing his job.

Oh shit, since we're making a comparison to education, I forgot that none of these employees can be fired! We must make due with the employees we are given--such an odd job!

Continuing on. Later on you get some phone calls from employees parents saying they have made more money in the past and dont understand why their kids arent making the same amount of money now. One parent is pissed that you are teaching pizza making in the way that you do because it goes against their values. They are going to have a talk with the pizza board of directors. Another parent forgets to feed their kid that night, so your employee shows up hungry and not ready to learn how to make pizzas. Another parent calls and is mad that their employee didnt make the pizza softball team.

After a long day of pizza training, you get to head home---whoops, no wait.
You get to head to pizza softball practice. The pizza administration had strongly "suggested" that you coach the company's softball team. Counting up all the hours spent traveling, coaching, and at games, the coaching comes out to less than minimum wage and adds a couple hours on average to your day.

Later on as your pizza training is progressing, the pizza making boss people test your employees on their pizza making skills. By now, even some of the worst employees can make an average pizza, and should test well. However, the test is multiple choice--the students arent even asked to make a pizza! The testing questions are ambiguous, and some of your brighter employees, who think outside of the pie, can find that multiple anwers could be correct depending on how you interpret them. One employee raises his hand and says "dis is wack, boss. What up with these questions with all these big words, bro?' The employee with behavioral disorders has excelled with the hands-on pizza making but becomes frustrated at this test where he cant display his true abilities. Another employee shows up late, again, and feels like they need to speed through the test. One forgets his medication and can't focus on the test because the air conditioner sounds like it's too loud and he forget his eraser at home and HE NEEDS THAT ERASER!

Your employees do decently on this multiple choice test, but you are called in to be fired because your scores were much lower than the scores from that new pizza place that is privately owned. That privately owned pizza place had already left a bad taste in your mouth, as they had recruited some of your top employees--they could also choose not to accept some of the worse employees.


--------------------------------------------
Now, how is teaching like every other job?
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10-04-2014, 07:28 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
Quote:Except neither mediocrity nor paying a fortune is anywhere evident in the actual statistics. So there's that.

The US spends about $15,000 per student yet averages a scores of only 480 (%40)China and India spend about $8000 per student and achieve average scores of 550-580 (75-90%). So yes, in comparison we waste money and get little return for it.

Yes, cljr, you do have a loser mentality. Your attitude of 'average is fine' and 'the empire is in decline, accept it' compounds the problem and it also explains why students from other countries are doing better.
Quote:The part where American public education funding per capita is exactly commensurate with GDP per capita as compared to other OECD nations, which was attested in the very report you just cited would seem to - just a little - interfere with the narrative you're trying to spin.

Another band aid for poor performance. It could be the US has a lower spending and better academic achievment than other nations. But yeah, with that kind of attitude, expect lukewarm performance.

Quote:As it, to some extent, must. Do you not see that?

The rest of the world will catch up in relative terms. The singular advantages the United States possessed during the middle part of the 20th century no longer exist.

More excuses.

Quote:Outsourcing isn't good labour, it's just cheap labour.

Globalisation of labour markets being, mind you, a totally different issue to relative academic performance among students of primary and secondary public education.

If it's superior quality work, it's both good AND cheap. And they are linked together.

If a nation is not turning out students with the skills and education to be competitive in today's world, they will slip behind in a matter of a decade or so. It's inevitable.

Quote:And if the problem can't be traced?
And if the problem is traceable to none of the above?

I never disagreed with the principle. In fact, I explicitly agreed with it. But merely stating that on its own is totally inadequate.

Well then the school should suffer no reprecussions for it. It gets good marks and if it's marks are superlative, I'd reward the people who run it for it. As for the bad ones, I'd investigate the problem and if needed terminiate the employees who aren't performing.

Quote:No, you seem to be convincing yourself I mean that.

What I actually said was that real solutions to a highly variable and complex problem need to be more sophisticated than "fire the bad people".

If we consider two surgeons, who practise in different cities, one of whom deals with twice as many obese patients, and we compare them based on how many of their patients die of heart attacks, guess what? The one treating all the fat guys is going to see a lot more of them go.

The solution in that case is not "fire the doctor".

This is a stupid canard and not comparable to my assertions. My points do take into account outside influences and those are easily traced back i.e. A classroom in a school in a bad part of town where most of the students are failing and good students as well as faculty and staff, when asked why, say the teacher is a good one but the whole class is full of kids who won't try. Here the problem does not lie with the school staff. If, however, these people come back and say that teacher is an idiot, who is boring, doesn't care about his students and wastes time in the teacher's lounge, you've identified your problem. Fire that teacher and hire on one who can do the job.

Quote:You know "wrongful dismissal" is a thing, right?

Under most employment contracts in most of the world one cannot fire at will.

Yeah there's such a thing as wrongful dismissal and the creep may try to get a lawyer and take you to court for it. But I'd say if multiple witnesses describe the plantiff as a screw-up, the case will be quickly dismissed.

The problem is that some of these employment contracts make it so diffiuclt to terminate a bad teacher or administrator that it's virtually impossible to do, or the legal costs of fighting it are so expensive that it's cheaper just to keep them on the payroll. That hurts everyone and creates a haven for poor performers.

Now if you make it possible to fire an employee with some basic due process combined with economic incentives for good performance, we can quickly weed out a lot of bad employees and replace them with stellar performers who can do the job.

Quote:How are those practices assessed?

If the aricraft structures and systems I design aren't on time and underweight or are poorly designed, that is my fault. If I review another employee's work and do not weed out the errors in it, that is my fault. If a design team manager creates a system which malfunctions and puts a $50 million aircraft and the lives of the passengers in jeoprody, that's his fault. And if a flight test director creates a flawed set of test points causing the loss of said $50 million aircraft and kills the test pilot, it's his fault.

And it's like that in any other career. Education does not deserve to be exempt from this kind of scrutiny.

Quote:And as I explicitly said multiple times - there are far more factors involved in such a scenario than just the teacher in question.

A single teacher is not a magic cure-all for every other possible negative variable. Put the best teacher in the world in a bad enough situation and the kids will do poorly. And firing his ass won't make them do any better under the next guy.

You myopic ignoramus. I said multiple times the the problems for poor performance should be traced down to the source. You however can't get that through your little head. IF THE PROBLEM IS THE TEACHER THEN FIRE THE TEACHER, IF THE PROBLEM LIES WITH THE PRINCIPAL, FIRE THE PRINCIPAL, IF THE PROBLEM LIES WITH THE DISTRICT SUPERINTENDENT, FIRE THE DISTRICT SUPERINTENDENT. IF THE PROBLEM LIES WITH THE KIDS OR THEIR PARENTS, THERE NOT A WHOLE LOT YOU CAN DO. NO SCHOOL STAFF SUFFER DISCIPLINARY ACTION FOR THIS.

Quote:Okay. You like firing people.

Just because that's your hammer doesn't mean everything's a nail.

I never said we shouldn't use hammers. I am trying to tell you not to hammer in screws.

No, stupid. I like a public education system which delivers outstanding results and when it won't you have to make some hard decisions to get it back in working order.

Seriously, you learned NOTHING from the 'Coffee Is For Closers' speech.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
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10-04-2014, 07:31 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(09-04-2014 05:43 PM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  cjlr,

Your replies have been fantastic. I always appreciate individuals who can use hard statistics, logic, and reasoning.

Teaching isn't like other jobs in the slightest. If teaching was like other jobs--for example managing a restaurant:

As a manager of a pizza place, you are given 20 employees. Some of these employees are fantastic--always ready to work and have a great attitude. Some of these employees can't even get their minds right to make pizza because they were up all night listening to mom and dad fight again. Some of these employees have emotional/behavioral disabilities and don't do well in high stress situations. Some of these employees have been prescribed medication, and may or may not have taken it that day. Some of these employees are overweight, or gay, or have really bad acne and cant focus on pizza making because all the social issues that they are dealing with are on their mind. Some of these employees show up a few times a week and always have an excuse why they are absent or tardy. Some of these employees don't speak english, and no one at the restaurant is bilingual. Some of these employees have been to 4 different pizza places in the last two years because dad found a new girlfriend and moved and sent them back to mom, who then moved to live with her new boyfriend, so they were sent to live with grandpa.

Now, these employees come into your store and you get to train them for 50 minutes a day, 5 days a week. Some catch on really quick, and some just can't stop picking their nose for 5 minutes--you fire this disgusting dude. A few didn't show up to work on time, so they interrupt training as they come in and time has to be spent getting them caught up--they get written up and fired later in the week when it happens again. One of the employees with a behavioral disorder starts kicking another employee because he didn't like the look he gave to him--he is told to come home and not come back to work tomorrow. Another employee raises his hand and says "I dont believe in pizza making! All pizzas that are here, have been here since the beginning!" Then, that employee refuses to make pizzas--he is fired for not doing his job.

Oh shit, since we're making a comparison to education, I forgot that none of these employees can be fired! We must make due with the employees we are given--such an odd job!

Continuing on. Later on you get some phone calls from employees parents saying they have made more money in the past and dont understand why their kids arent making the same amount of money now. One parent is pissed that you are teaching pizza making in the way that you do because it goes against their values. They are going to have a talk with the pizza board of directors. Another parent forgets to feed their kid that night, so your employee shows up hungry and not ready to learn how to make pizzas. Another parent calls and is mad that their employee didnt make the pizza softball team.

After a long day of pizza training, you get to head home---whoops, no wait.
You get to head to pizza softball practice. The pizza administration had strongly "suggested" that you coach the company's softball team. Counting up all the hours spent traveling, coaching, and at games, the coaching comes out to less than minimum wage and adds a couple hours on average to your day.

Later on as your pizza training is progressing, the pizza making boss people test your employees on their pizza making skills. By now, even some of the worst employees can make an average pizza, and should test well. However, the test is multiple choice--the students arent even asked to make a pizza! The testing questions are ambiguous, and some of your brighter employees, who think outside of the pie, can find that multiple anwers could be correct depending on how you interpret them. One employee raises his hand and says "dis is wack, boss. What up with these questions with all these big words, bro?' The employee with behavioral disorders has excelled with the hands-on pizza making but becomes frustrated at this test where he cant display his true abilities. Another employee shows up late, again, and feels like they need to speed through the test. One forgets his medication and can't focus on the test because the air conditioner sounds like it's too loud and he forget his eraser at home and HE NEEDS THAT ERASER!

Your employees do decently on this multiple choice test, but you are called in to be fired because your scores were much lower than the scores from that new pizza place that is privately owned. That privately owned pizza place had already left a bad taste in your mouth, as they had recruited some of your top employees--they could also choose not to accept some of the worse employees.


--------------------------------------------
Now, how is teaching like every other job?

What UTTER drivel.

No wonder we're failing with that kind of attitude.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
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10-04-2014, 09:00 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Except neither mediocrity nor paying a fortune is anywhere evident in the actual statistics. So there's that.

The US spends about $15,000 per student yet averages a scores of only 480 (%40)China and India spend about $8000 per student and achieve average scores of 550-580 (75-90%). So yes, in comparison we waste money and get little return for it.

Where are you getting that data?

Is it the PISA studies, and the other OECD reports, which you mentioned earlier (as did others in the thread)?

The studies that don't include India?

The studies that, for China, list only three exceptional cities, rather than the whole country?

The studies that show the American expenditure to be higher only when including private and tertiary spending?

The studies that show American public spending per capita - adjusted to GDP per capita - is not higher than the other OECD nations?

The studies you fucking cited and which demonstrate none of your repeatedly corrected claims?

Those studies?

Just checking, dude.

I mean, perceptions and fantasy are almost as good as data for founding opinions on. Certainly they're the runners-up. Right?

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Yes, cljr, you do have a loser mentality.

Citation needed.

As far as I can tell this is something you made up for rhetorical convenience.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Your attitude of 'average is fine'...

What I said was that average was not problematic. But thanks for misrepresenting that, I guess.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ... and 'the empire is in decline, accept it' compounds the problem and it also explains why students from other countries are doing better.

Nowhere - ever in this thread - did I ever suggest improvement was not desirable or even possible.

Please stop jacking off that straw man.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:The part where American public education funding per capita is exactly commensurate with GDP per capita as compared to other OECD nations, which was attested in the very report you just cited would seem to - just a little - interfere with the narrative you're trying to spin.

Another band aid for poor performance.

Average is not poor. Do you understand this distinction?

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  It could be the US has a lower spending and better academic achievment than other nations. But yeah, with that kind of attitude, expect lukewarm performance.

If you're dealing with a collection of statistical data - we are - then, and I know this may shock you, but there will be statistical variation.

Since you're so fond of "coffee is for closers", let me share another handy ol' tidbit of knowledge with you: "there is no such thing as a free lunch".

Do you know what that means?

It means that being more efficient requires being somehow better than everybody else. Americans are not somehow better than everybody else. Tough shit. If you want better than average performance, make a better than average effort.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:As it, to some extent, must. Do you not see that?

The rest of the world will catch up in relative terms. The singular advantages the United States possessed during the middle part of the 20th century no longer exist.

More excuses.

So, excuses are what you're calling reality now. Okay, then.

Exceptionalism was an idiotic doctrine and it's better off dead. Deal with it.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Outsourcing isn't good labour, it's just cheap labour.

Globalisation of labour markets being, mind you, a totally different issue to relative academic performance among students of primary and secondary public education.

If it's superior quality work, it's both good AND cheap. And they are linked together.

In the trivial sense that everything is linked together, sure.

But the quality of education and the cost of labour are totally different things. We don't outsource to Finland.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  If a nation is not turning out students with the skills and education to be competitive in today's world...

And let us here note that this is not the case...

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ... they will slip behind in a matter of a decade or so. It's inevitable.

You keep repeating similar sentiments as a an article of faith.

Certainly no data backs you up here.

Even if American public education were magically terrible somehow, the tertiary education infrastructure of the USA (and Europe) are already so well-established that a massive brain drain is the single biggest fear of developing nations.

Here. Let me share some anecdata with you. Apparently referring to actual statistics on primary and secondary education doesn't matter to you. You have feels about the situation which cannot be argued with.

But let's consider tertiary education - colleges and universities and technical schools. The existing infrastructure in the USA (and Canada and Europe) is already the source of a massive brain drain in the developing world.

My graduating class in Physics was me and two Chinese guys. Neither of them is planning on ever going home to stay. My current class in graduate physics is two Indians, two Saudis, a Russian, and me. None of them are planning on ever going home.

I'll be sure to let all of them know that their having had actual educational opportunities growing up in the rest of the world means that somehow Canada is diminished even when they eventually end up here. Because that makes so much sense.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:And if the problem can't be traced?
And if the problem is traceable to none of the above?

I never disagreed with the principle. In fact, I explicitly agreed with it. But merely stating that on its own is totally inadequate.

Well then the school should suffer no reprecussions for it.

Good! You've grasped that simple premise.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  It gets good marks and if it's marks are superlative, I'd reward the people who run it for it. As for the bad ones, I'd investigate the problem and if needed terminiate the employees who aren't performing.

Let us consider a thought experiment:
What portion of a school's difficulties are attributable to single individuals?

Is it most? Is it few? Do you have any data whatsoever? Or is this more feelings-based reasoning?

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:No, you seem to be convincing yourself I mean that.

What I actually said was that real solutions to a highly variable and complex problem need to be more sophisticated than "fire the bad people".

If we consider two surgeons, who practise in different cities, one of whom deals with twice as many obese patients, and we compare them based on how many of their patients die of heart attacks, guess what? The one treating all the fat guys is going to see a lot more of them go.

The solution in that case is not "fire the doctor".

This is a stupid canard and not comparable to my assertions.

The analogy is perfectly apt. If you do not see why then you do not understand the reality of the situation. Oh well.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  My points do take into account outside influences...

No, only firing or rewarding school staff means only dealing with a tiny portion of the problems in the lives of the people who are living at the bottom ends of the curves.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ... and those are easily traced back i.e. A classroom in a school in a bad part of town where most of the students are failing and good students as well as faculty and staff, when asked why, say the teacher is a good one but the whole class is full of kids who won't try. Here the problem does not lie with the school staff. If, however, these people come back and say that teacher is an idiot, who is boring, doesn't care about his students and wastes time in the teacher's lounge, you've identified your problem. Fire that teacher and hire on one who can do the job.

Yes.

That would probably suffice in a very narrow set of circumstances.

What about every single other thing that might be a negative influence, hmm?

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:You know "wrongful dismissal" is a thing, right?

Under most employment contracts in most of the world one cannot fire at will.

Yeah there's such a thing as wrongful dismissal and the creep may try to get a lawyer and take you to court for it. But I'd say if multiple witnesses describe the plantiff as a screw-up, the case will be quickly dismissed.

Sure.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  The problem is that some of these employment contracts make it so diffiuclt to terminate a bad teacher or administrator that it's virtually impossible to do, or the legal costs of fighting it are so expensive that it's cheaper just to keep them on the payroll. That hurts everyone and creates a haven for poor performers.

Do you have any data on this?

Because last time I asked for data you either misinterpreted or just ignored the OECD date you, yourself originally provided.

"We are besieged by the lazy horde" is a prominent enough meme in some circles. Declaring it to be thus to each other does not constitute substantiation.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Now if you make it possible to fire an employee with some basic due process combined with economic incentives for good performance, we can quickly weed out a lot of bad employees and replace them with stellar performers who can do the job.

Yes.

In a very reductive and simplistic sense. Note that I never disagreed with this.

The real world is quite a bit more complicated than that. Sad but true. What about all the other problems? What should we do about them?

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:How are those practices assessed?

If the aricraft structures and systems I design aren't on time and underweight or are poorly designed, that is my fault. If I review another employee's work and do not weed out the errors in it, that is my fault. If a design team manager creates a system which malfunctions and puts a $50 million aircraft and the lives of the passengers in jeoprody, that's his fault. And if a flight test director creates a flawed set of test points causing the loss of said $50 million aircraft and kills the test pilot, it's his fault.

And it's like that in any other career. Education does not deserve to be exempt from this kind of scrutiny.

And you - as a designer - are not accountable for most of the things that can go wrong in an airplane. Do you understand the distinction?

It is also far easier to isolate factors in a mechanism than in a human being. Do you understand the distinction?

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:And as I explicitly said multiple times - there are far more factors involved in such a scenario than just the teacher in question.

A single teacher is not a magic cure-all for every other possible negative variable. Put the best teacher in the world in a bad enough situation and the kids will do poorly. And firing his ass won't make them do any better under the next guy.

You myopic ignoramus.

I could insult you, if I wanted to. I just don't want to.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  I said multiple times the the problems for poor performance should be traced down to the source.

IF THE PROBLEM IS THE TEACHER THEN FIRE THE TEACHER, IF THE PROBLEM LIES WITH THE PRINCIPAL, FIRE THE PRINCIPAL, IF THE PROBLEM LIES WITH THE DISTRICT SUPERINTENDENT, FIRE THE DISTRICT SUPERINTENDENT. IF THE PROBLEM LIES WITH THE KIDS OR THEIR PARENTS, THERE NOT A WHOLE LOT YOU CAN DO. NO SCHOOL STAFF SUFFER DISCIPLINARY ACTION FOR THIS.

And I am asking you what I thought would be a fairly rudimentary and necessary question

What do you think should be done in cases where problems cannot be traced to a single person?

You myopic ignoramus?

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Okay. You like firing people.

Just because that's your hammer doesn't mean everything's a nail.

I never said we shouldn't use hammers. I am trying to tell you not to hammer in screws.

No, stupid.

Oh, so you're going to just ignore the point entirely.

That's your prerogative, I guess.

(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  I like a public education system which delivers outstanding results and when it won't you have to make some hard decisions to get it back in working order.

Seriously, you learned NOTHING from the 'Coffee Is For Closers' speech.

You have ignored pretty much everything I've said in this thread, ignored the data you cited, and argued strenuously points I freely acknowledged.

You also would rather insult me than appreciate the things I am trying to raise in addition to what you've mentioned.

You apparently learned nothing about the actual themes of that movie.

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