Kansas takes away teacher tenure
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10-04-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
If anyone wishes to consult the actual OECD data, it may be found here.

Relevant sections include:
Unadjusted spending per capita for different levels of education.
Spending relative to GDP per capita.
Contrasting tertiary and non-tertiary spending.

Raw PISA data is not publicly available, but Wikipedia has the most recent results clearly laid out.

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10-04-2014, 09:36 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(10-04-2014 07:28 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  You myopic ignoramus. I said multiple times the the problems for poor performance should be traced down to the source. You however can't get that through your little head. IF THE PROBLEM IS THE TEACHER THEN FIRE THE TEACHER, IF THE PROBLEM LIES WITH THE PRINCIPAL, FIRE THE PRINCIPAL, IF THE PROBLEM LIES WITH THE DISTRICT SUPERINTENDENT, FIRE THE DISTRICT SUPERINTENDENT. IF THE PROBLEM LIES WITH THE KIDS OR THEIR PARENTS, THERE NOT A WHOLE LOT YOU CAN DO. NO SCHOOL STAFF SUFFER DISCIPLINARY ACTION FOR THIS.

If, if, if, if. If unicorns could shit skittles (shittles?) then maybe we could taste the number eight.

You still haven't given any empirical methods that can be used to objectively say which one is at fault. I'm beginning to think you don't understand those words. You are just another player in the blame game. Are there 'bad' teachers? Sure. Are there idiots that can't understand that objective protocols would have to be produced? Yes.

Who is going to be in charge of tracing the problem to the source? Shall we invest millions into developing protocols, training these evaluators, and paying them? Who is in charge of passing the protocols? Legislators?? LMFAO. Oh, and the litigation that would ensue would cost another few million.
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10-04-2014, 09:46 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(10-04-2014 07:31 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 05:43 PM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  cjlr,

Your replies have been fantastic. I always appreciate individuals who can use hard statistics, logic, and reasoning.

Teaching isn't like other jobs in the slightest. If teaching was like other jobs--for example managing a restaurant:

As a manager of a pizza place, you are given 20 employees. Some of these employees are fantastic--always ready to work and have a great attitude. Some of these employees can't even get their minds right to make pizza because they were up all night listening to mom and dad fight again. Some of these employees have emotional/behavioral disabilities and don't do well in high stress situations. Some of these employees have been prescribed medication, and may or may not have taken it that day. Some of these employees are overweight, or gay, or have really bad acne and cant focus on pizza making because all the social issues that they are dealing with are on their mind. Some of these employees show up a few times a week and always have an excuse why they are absent or tardy. Some of these employees don't speak english, and no one at the restaurant is bilingual. Some of these employees have been to 4 different pizza places in the last two years because dad found a new girlfriend and moved and sent them back to mom, who then moved to live with her new boyfriend, so they were sent to live with grandpa.

Now, these employees come into your store and you get to train them for 50 minutes a day, 5 days a week. Some catch on really quick, and some just can't stop picking their nose for 5 minutes--you fire this disgusting dude. A few didn't show up to work on time, so they interrupt training as they come in and time has to be spent getting them caught up--they get written up and fired later in the week when it happens again. One of the employees with a behavioral disorder starts kicking another employee because he didn't like the look he gave to him--he is told to come home and not come back to work tomorrow. Another employee raises his hand and says "I dont believe in pizza making! All pizzas that are here, have been here since the beginning!" Then, that employee refuses to make pizzas--he is fired for not doing his job.

Oh shit, since we're making a comparison to education, I forgot that none of these employees can be fired! We must make due with the employees we are given--such an odd job!

Continuing on. Later on you get some phone calls from employees parents saying they have made more money in the past and dont understand why their kids arent making the same amount of money now. One parent is pissed that you are teaching pizza making in the way that you do because it goes against their values. They are going to have a talk with the pizza board of directors. Another parent forgets to feed their kid that night, so your employee shows up hungry and not ready to learn how to make pizzas. Another parent calls and is mad that their employee didnt make the pizza softball team.

After a long day of pizza training, you get to head home---whoops, no wait.
You get to head to pizza softball practice. The pizza administration had strongly "suggested" that you coach the company's softball team. Counting up all the hours spent traveling, coaching, and at games, the coaching comes out to less than minimum wage and adds a couple hours on average to your day.

Later on as your pizza training is progressing, the pizza making boss people test your employees on their pizza making skills. By now, even some of the worst employees can make an average pizza, and should test well. However, the test is multiple choice--the students arent even asked to make a pizza! The testing questions are ambiguous, and some of your brighter employees, who think outside of the pie, can find that multiple anwers could be correct depending on how you interpret them. One employee raises his hand and says "dis is wack, boss. What up with these questions with all these big words, bro?' The employee with behavioral disorders has excelled with the hands-on pizza making but becomes frustrated at this test where he cant display his true abilities. Another employee shows up late, again, and feels like they need to speed through the test. One forgets his medication and can't focus on the test because the air conditioner sounds like it's too loud and he forget his eraser at home and HE NEEDS THAT ERASER!

Your employees do decently on this multiple choice test, but you are called in to be fired because your scores were much lower than the scores from that new pizza place that is privately owned. That privately owned pizza place had already left a bad taste in your mouth, as they had recruited some of your top employees--they could also choose not to accept some of the worse employees.


--------------------------------------------
Now, how is teaching like every other job?

What UTTER drivel.

No wonder we're failing with that kind of attitude.

Bowing High five for another fantastic response. You are one master debater!

Where, exactly, are we failing? All of the data presented to you clearly shows that we are not failing. I am beginning to think you don't understand this word either.

Please, explain what attitude I am displaying? The attitude that teaching is a unique career that can't be correlated with other occupations?

What event occurred that ignited your vitriol against educators?
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10-04-2014, 10:12 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
As a Kansas resident who has several teacher friends, I've been hearing about this bill alot.

And its utterly depressing. Parents already have too much grip on the school board's testicles. One parent bitching about one little thing and the whole board is already bent over slathering oil on themselves.

And I thought our No-Child-Left-Behind program was bad enough. One of the valedictorians at my high school was FAILING a class just a week before graduation because he had just not turned in any lab reports in Physics all semester. But no, because "failing" a student's assignment is BAD we just give them an INCOMPLETE until its turned in. Even when its turned in 4 months late, then its full credit. R-E-Tarded.

Sorry. Back to you, jag. Tongue
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14-04-2014, 03:05 PM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
Quote:Is it the PISA studies, and the other OECD reports, which you mentioned earlier (as did others in the thread)?

The studies that don't include India?

The studies that, for China, list only three exceptional cities, rather than the whole country?

The studies that show the American expenditure to be higher only when including private and tertiary spending?

The studies that show American public spending per capita - adjusted to GDP per capita - is not higher than the other OECD nations?

The studies you fucking cited and which demonstrate none of your repeatedly corrected claims?

Those studies?

Just checking, dude.

I mean, perceptions and fantasy are almost as good as data for founding opinions on. Certainly they're the runners-up. Right?

No what I did cite was that we ARE spending more than any other industrialized nation and a hell of a lot more than developing nations like China which are doing better than us. I've also pointed out that we have increased spending to double the amount we used to, even adjusted for inflation, and still see stagnant, test scores and graduation rates for the money we spend.

And you have the guts to respond back to this with 'well it's avarage, so it's acceptable' crap. Come off it. If you want to be average, don't demand increases in education funds. I however would like to see US public schools become EXCEPTIONAL and like a lot of other Americans want changes made to do this, including, but not limited to, good pay and bonuses for superb teachers and schools who turn out high achieving students, firing poor performing teachers and shutting down public schools when they don't work.

Quote:Nowhere - ever in this thread - did I ever suggest improvement was not desirable or even possible.

Please stop jacking off that straw man.

Yes you did and when you get called to the carpet for it, don't complain. You justify a public school teacher or administrator's immunity from disciplinary action for poor performance by more or less stating that average is acceptable when it is not. It is not the responsibility of the taxpayers to provide these people with jobs when they can obtain superior labor elsewhere.

Quote:If you're dealing with a collection of statistical data - we are - then, and I know this may shock you, but there will be statistical variation.

Since you're so fond of "coffee is for closers", let me share another handy ol' tidbit of knowledge with you: "there is no such thing as a free lunch".

Do you know what that means?

It means that being more efficient requires being somehow better than everybody else. Americans are not somehow better than everybody else. Tough shit. If you want better than average performance, make a better than average effort.

BZZZT!!!! Wrong answer! The phrase 'no such thing as a free lunch means nothing comes without a cost or tradeoffs. And then to go further and add 'If you want better than average performance, make a better than average effort.' all while arguing against making major reforms to public education or terminating poor performers and then justify this by saying we get average performance, which is therefore acceptable? Oh, the irony.

Quote:So, excuses are what you're calling reality now. Okay, then.

Exceptionalism was an idiotic doctrine and it's better off dead. Deal with it.

Spoken like a true loser. You want to run your life that way? Fine. But don't drag the rest of down and demand our tax dollars go toward maintaining the mediorce state of public education.

Quote:You keep repeating similar sentiments as a an article of faith.

Certainly no data backs you up here.

Even if American public education were magically terrible somehow, the tertiary education infrastructure of the USA (and Europe) are already so well-established that a massive brain drain is the single biggest fear of developing nations.

Here. Let me share some anecdata with you. Apparently referring to actual statistics on primary and secondary education doesn't matter to you. You have feels about the situation which cannot be argued with.

But let's consider tertiary education - colleges and universities and technical schools. The existing infrastructure in the USA (and Canada and Europe) is already the source of a massive brain drain in the developing world.

My graduating class in Physics was me and two Chinese guys. Neither of them is planning on ever going home to stay. My current class in graduate physics is two Indians, two Saudis, a Russian, and me. None of them are planning on ever going home.

I'll be sure to let all of them know that their having had actual educational opportunities growing up in the rest of the world means that somehow Canada is diminished even when they eventually end up here. Because that makes so much sense.

I have no idea what you are babbling about here, sufficed to say, you've lost all ability to stay on track with you original point of contention i.e. firing an educator for poor performance.

Quote:Good! You've grasped that simple premise.

It's a pity you can't do the same with the simple idea that when you have a bad or poor performing employee, you terminate them and hire one who does a good job.

Quote:Let us consider a thought experiment:
What portion of a school's difficulties are attributable to single individuals?

Is it most? Is it few? Do you have any data whatsoever? Or is this more feelings-based reasoning?

We had this conversation already, idiot. When you trace the problem to an individual you discipline the indiviual. If it's traceable to the students or other administrative personnel you handle it differently.

Quote:The analogy is perfectly apt. If you do not see why then you do not understand the reality of the situation. Oh well.

It IS a canard beacuse you cannot understand that sometimes the problem traces straight to a person and is not outside related. You show an example of two doctors with an obvious link between patient condition and their patient deaths. But consider if one of the doctors has a poor report amongst his patients and has been sued successfully for malpractice on several occasions. Shall he continue to be employed and the problem still blamed on a stream of obese patients who will not apply his medicine?

Quote:No, only firing or rewarding school staff means only dealing with a tiny portion of the problems in the lives of the people who are living at the bottom ends of the curves.

In that case, we look into investigating what's causing the problem and addressing it appropriately. Employment termination is useful in the situations I described but for larger scale problems, it may require more drastic measures such as closing down a poor performing school and sending the children off to a better performing one.

Quote:Yes.

That would probably suffice in a very narrow set of circumstances.

What about every single other thing that might be a negative influence, hmm?

You apparently cannot wrap your mind around the idea I NEVER SAY EVERY SCHOOL PROBLEM CAN BE HANDLED BY FIRING TEACHERS! That being said, for the poor performing schools, drastic measures may have to be taken to reform the system and make it work.

Quote:Do you have any data on this?

Because last time I asked for data you either misinterpreted or just ignored the OECD date you, yourself originally provided.

"We are besieged by the lazy horde" is a prominent enough meme in some circles. Declaring it to be thus to each other does not constitute substantiation.

Have you ever seen a public school employmnent contract? Or the process that is required to terminate a bad employee there?

And it's not just teachers, it's the school board administrators and other public brueaucrats which are bad and mismanage money or accept a failing school. And they're difficult to get rid of for the same reason. The contracts are negotiated by the teacher's unions and set up in a way that creates a haven for poor performance at the expense of the children who attend there.

Quote:Yes.

In a very reductive and simplistic sense. Note that I never disagreed with this.

The real world is quite a bit more complicated than that. Sad but true. What about all the other problems? What should we do about them?

Then what the hell are you arguing about?

As for 'other problems' You're going to have to define those more specifically.

Quote:And you - as a designer - are not accountable for most of the things that can go wrong in an airplane. Do you understand the distinction?

It is also far easier to isolate factors in a mechanism than in a human being. Do you understand the distinction?

cljr you are talking out of your hinder on a subject you know nothing about. As explained in the example, I am responsible for my sphere that I work on, so is the guy above me, etc., etc., etc. If I cannot do the job correct or turn out mediocre work, I cannot justify the company paying me $70 an hour for professional work. It's like that in every occupation. Education is not exempt.

Like every profession, teaching is an art. And when there are bad artists they need to go and be replaced with good ones. It's that simple. Your job is to teach a subject matter to another human being. If you can't do that, we can't pay you hard earned tax dollars to be there.

Quote:And I am asking you what I thought would be a fairly rudimentary and necessary question

What do you think should be done in cases where problems cannot be traced to a single person?

You myopic ignoramus?

Specify the problem and I'll try to give solutions to it.

Quote:You have ignored pretty much everything I've said in this thread, ignored the data you cited, and argued strenuously points I freely acknowledged.

You also would rather insult me than appreciate the things I am trying to raise in addition to what you've mentioned.

You apparently learned nothing about the actual themes of that movie.

I have tried to talk with you about this. Your problem is you can't get over the idea of firing a teacher for poor performance and instead are either blaming the problems with public education on outside sources or justifying mediocre performance as acceptable.

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14-04-2014, 03:10 PM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
This is like watching the love child of I&I and Chippy trying to force a point of view.

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14-04-2014, 04:12 PM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Is it the PISA studies, and the other OECD reports, which you mentioned earlier (as did others in the thread)?

The studies that don't include India?

The studies that, for China, list only three exceptional cities, rather than the whole country?

The studies that show the American expenditure to be higher only when including private and tertiary spending?

The studies that show American public spending per capita - adjusted to GDP per capita - is not higher than the other OECD nations?

The studies you fucking cited and which demonstrate none of your repeatedly corrected claims?

Those studies?

Just checking, dude.

I mean, perceptions and fantasy are almost as good as data for founding opinions on. Certainly they're the runners-up. Right?

No what I did cite was that we ARE spending more than any other industrialized nation and a hell of a lot more than developing nations like China which are doing better than us.

Except the report does not say that. Do you understand the difference? You can't cite data which isn't in the study.

American public spending on primary and secondary education is not proportionally higher than any other nation considered by the OECD. As demonstrated by literally the exact report you cited. Which does not say what you claim it does. Did you read it? I helpfully linked directly to the relevant sections.

Your claim is untrue. If you have any honesty here you will either retract it or amend it.

Since there are no provided figures for what China is spending – let alone India – I have to ask once more: where are you getting these feels? As far as I can tell they are only feels.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  I've also pointed out that we have increased spending to double the amount we used to, even adjusted for inflation, and still see stagnant, test scores and graduation rates for the money we spend.

Given the – ahem – reliability of your other “data”, I'm gonna call “citation needed” on that.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  And you have the guts to respond back to this with 'well it's avarage, so it's acceptable' crap.

Getting average results from average inputs is not a problem. And that's what the data show. So there's that.

I indeed assumed that's what you meant by “problem”. That was my mistake. Because the “problem” you refer to (below average results from above average inputs) is a fantasy. It doesn't exist. So there's that too.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Come off it. If you want to be average, don't demand increases in education funds. I however would like to see US public schools become EXCEPTIONAL and like a lot of other Americans want changes made to do this, including, but not limited to, good pay and bonuses for superb teachers and schools who turn out high achieving students, firing poor performing teachers and shutting down public schools when they don't work.

You can keep trying new kinds of fertilizer until the cows come home, but if you're attempting to germinate pebbles your crop is going to be found wanting.

You have consistently failed to acknowledge the point I am attempting to draw your attention to: difficulties with unequal educational attainment are not dependent on the factor you isolate.

I know you have the capacity to grasp such a distinction. I am very puzzled by your apparent refusal to do so.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Yes you did...

No.

Citation fucking needed, buddy. I never said any such thing.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ... and when you get called to the carpet for it, don't complain. You justify a public school teacher or administrator's immunity from disciplinary action for poor performance by more or less stating that average is acceptable when it is not.

Ah, I understand now. This is one of those times when “more or less stating” amounts to “not at all stating, but rhetorically convenient for me to pretend so”.

Don't put words in my mouth, 'kay?

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  It is not the responsibility of the taxpayers to provide these people with jobs when they can obtain superior labor elsewhere.

Sure. Relevance?

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:If you're dealing with a collection of statistical data - we are - then, and I know this may shock you, but there will be statistical variation.

Since you're so fond of "coffee is for closers", let me share another handy ol' tidbit of knowledge with you: "there is no such thing as a free lunch".

Do you know what that means?

It means that being more efficient requires being somehow better than everybody else. Americans are not somehow better than everybody else. Tough shit. If you want better than average performance, make a better than average effort.

BZZZT!!!! Wrong answer! The phrase 'no such thing as a free lunch means nothing comes without a cost or tradeoffs. And then to go further and add 'If you want better than average performance, make a better than average effort.'

Okay. So the part where American educational expenditure is average means you should have no trouble understanding why the results are average.

You're so fucking close to grasping this, man. So close.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ... all while arguing against making major reforms to public education or terminating poor performers and then justify this by saying we get average performance, which is therefore acceptable? Oh, the irony.

Since I literally never said any such thing, you really ought to stop flailing about with straw men.

You are basing your entire opinion on bad data. You cited OECD reports yourself but are apparently unable to read them.

But don't worry – we can probably blame that on your terrible American public school experience. I hope somebody got fired for that!

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:So, excuses are what you're calling reality now. Okay, then.

Exceptionalism was an idiotic doctrine and it's better off dead. Deal with it.

Spoken like a true loser. You want to run your life that way? Fine. But don't drag the rest of down and demand our tax dollars go toward maintaining the mediorce state of public education.

Bro, I'm not even American.

“We must be the best at everything forever” is a maxim that is bound for unpleasant collision with reality sooner rather than later. Deal with it.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:You keep repeating similar sentiments as a an article of faith.

Certainly no data backs you up here.

Even if American public education were magically terrible somehow, the tertiary education infrastructure of the USA (and Europe) are already so well-established that a massive brain drain is the single biggest fear of developing nations.

Here. Let me share some anecdata with you. Apparently referring to actual statistics on primary and secondary education doesn't matter to you. You have feels about the situation which cannot be argued with.

But let's consider tertiary education - colleges and universities and technical schools. The existing infrastructure in the USA (and Canada and Europe) is already the source of a massive brain drain in the developing world.

My graduating class in Physics was me and two Chinese guys. Neither of them is planning on ever going home to stay. My current class in graduate physics is two Indians, two Saudis, a Russian, and me. None of them are planning on ever going home.

I'll be sure to let all of them know that their having had actual educational opportunities growing up in the rest of the world means that somehow Canada is diminished even when they eventually end up here. Because that makes so much sense.

I have no idea what you are babbling about here, sufficed to say, you've lost all ability to stay on track with you original point of contention i.e. firing an educator for poor performance.

My point is that “the darkies are outschooling us” is a ridiculous fantasy.

My point is that “progress is a zero sum game” is a ridiculous fantasy.

The problem is that you think they're not.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Good! You've grasped that simple premise.

It's a pity you can't do the same with the simple idea that when you have a bad or poor performing employee, you terminate them and hire one who does a good job.

Remember when I literally and explicitly said that was valid but insufficient?

Because incidentally, it's still valid and still insufficient. I never denied the validity; I have repeatedly decried the insufficiency. Do you understand the difference?

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Let us consider a thought experiment:
What portion of a school's difficulties are attributable to single individuals?

Is it most? Is it few? Do you have any data whatsoever? Or is this more feelings-based reasoning?

We had this conversation already, idiot. When you trace the problem to an individual you discipline the indiviual. If it's traceable to the students or other administrative personnel you handle it differently.

Right. I'm glad you see this theoretical point.

I raise a further points for your consideration:
What are the actual data? Do you have any idea whatsoever? Your track record is not so great in this thread. Do you have any idea how performance might be fairly assessed, how cause might be fairly ascribed, and how the numbers bear out?

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:The analogy is perfectly apt. If you do not see why then you do not understand the reality of the situation. Oh well.

It IS a canard beacuse you cannot understand that sometimes the problem traces straight to a person and is not outside related.

No, I repeatedly acknowledged, literally and explicitly, that some problems are related to individuals and some are not. Your solution only treats individuals. Therefore it is insufficient. That's the point.

You have admitted this now several times in your latest post, in a very roundabout way – I suppose so that you needn't admit to having been overly simplistic and ludicrously reductive.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  You show an example of two doctors with an obvious link between patient condition and their patient deaths. But consider if one of the doctors has a poor report amongst his patients and has been sued successfully for malpractice on several occasions. Shall he continue to be employed and the problem still blamed on a stream of obese patients who will not apply his medicine?

That would depend, as you well know, on many, many additional factors. There are a lot more variables to consider.

Just like a teacher's performance consists of far, far more variables than a class's standardised test scores.

Do you see the point yet?

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:No, only firing or rewarding school staff means only dealing with a tiny portion of the problems in the lives of the people who are living at the bottom ends of the curves.

In that case, we look into investigating what's causing the problem and addressing it appropriately. Employment termination is useful in the situations I described but for larger scale problems, it may require more drastic measures such as closing down a poor performing school and sending the children off to a better performing one.

Do the children's out-of-school problems then magically disappear?

Do the other schools then magically increase their capacity to compensate?

An extraordinarily vague general principle is adequate so far as it extends, but by definition it does not extend very far.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Yes.

That would probably suffice in a very narrow set of circumstances.

What about every single other thing that might be a negative influence, hmm?

You apparently cannot wrap your mind around the idea I NEVER SAY EVERY SCHOOL PROBLEM CAN BE HANDLED BY FIRING TEACHERS! That being said, for the poor performing schools, drastic measures may have to be taken to reform the system and make it work.

No, but it's the one single suggestion you have made and the one single fixation you have demonstrated throughout this thread.

You've gone to great lengths to get upset at straw men when I had the unmitigated gall to point this out to you.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Do you have any data on this?

Because last time I asked for data you either misinterpreted or just ignored the OECD date you, yourself originally provided.

"We are besieged by the lazy horde" is a prominent enough meme in some circles. Declaring it to be thus to each other does not constitute substantiation.

Have you ever seen a public school employmnent contract? Or the process that is required to terminate a bad employee there?

And it's not just teachers, it's the school board administrators and other public brueaucrats which are bad and mismanage money or accept a failing school. And they're difficult to get rid of for the same reason. The contracts are negotiated by the teacher's unions and set up in a way that creates a haven for poor performance at the expense of the children who attend there.

That didn't in any way answer the question.

Protip: I asked for data.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:Yes.

In a very reductive and simplistic sense. Note that I never disagreed with this.

The real world is quite a bit more complicated than that. Sad but true. What about all the other problems? What should we do about them?

Then what the hell are you arguing about?

As for 'other problems' You're going to have to define those more specifically.

Poverty is inversely correlated with grades, to name just one.

A better teacher doesn't make a kid not poor.

The problem with “fire bad teachers” is that bad is very hard to define and that that doesn't solve everything in any case. That's all I've been trying to tell you.

Somehow in your mind this became “let's embrace failure and never change anything”.

No, I'm not quite sure how that happened either.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:And you - as a designer - are not accountable for most of the things that can go wrong in an airplane. Do you understand the distinction?

It is also far easier to isolate factors in a mechanism than in a human being. Do you understand the distinction?

cljr you are talking out of your hinder on a subject you know nothing about. As explained in the example, I am responsible for my sphere that I work on, so is the guy above me, etc., etc., etc. If I cannot do the job correct or turn out mediocre work, I cannot justify the company paying me $70 an hour for professional work. It's like that in every occupation. Education is not exempt.

Indeed. That's why I never said it was and literally and explicitly agreed that it wasn't, your delusional straw men to the contrary.

It's plain that you understand the issues with attributing performance and issues with performance. Why you so steadfastly refuse to recognize these same issues apply in spades to educational staff, I don't know.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Like every profession, teaching is an art. And when there are bad artists they need to go and be replaced with good ones. It's that simple. Your job is to teach a subject matter to another human being. If you can't do that, we can't pay you hard earned tax dollars to be there.

Quote:And I am asking you what I thought would be a fairly rudimentary and necessary question

What do you think should be done in cases where problems cannot be traced to a single person?

You myopic ignoramus?

Specify the problem and I'll try to give solutions to it.

Beyond the problems with your suggestion?

Home life is a huge predictor of school performance. Local funding disparity is a huge problem.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:You have ignored pretty much everything I've said in this thread, ignored the data you cited, and argued strenuously points I freely acknowledged.

You also would rather insult me than appreciate the things I am trying to raise in addition to what you've mentioned.

You apparently learned nothing about the actual themes of that movie.

I have tried to talk with you about this. Your problem is you can't get over the idea of firing a teacher for poor performance...

NOPE. Never said that. Citation needed.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ... and instead are either blaming the problems with public education on outside sources...

NOPE. Never said that. Merely acknowledging the existence of outside sources of problems.

(14-04-2014 03:05 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ... or justifying mediocre performance as acceptable.

NOPE. Never said that – I freely welcome improvement. Notwithstanding that "mediocrity" is something you've now asserted despite the actual data.

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14-04-2014, 10:35 PM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
Sorry if I'm jumping in here.

The purpose of tenure in academia is to protect the integrity of research and study. A professor that has controversial research or explores ideas considered offensive needs the protection of tenure to allow unfettered intellectual exploration . I support tenure for college professors and researchers.

I have a hard time believing tenure is necessary for primary and secondary schools. That is not the place for academic exploration. These teachers are hired for their technical teaching abilities, and should be teaching the curriculum, not exploring new areas of research. I do not believe these teachers should be entitled to teach outside the curriculum. Their classrooms are not their platform for advocacy or free speech.

Arguments about evolution in this thread are a red herring . Evolution should be in the curriculum, and if it is not, the issue is properly addressed in the courts as an issue of separation of church and state. If individual free speech of primary and secondary school teachers is a paramount right, then it is for both teachers who teach science and those who want to teach "alternate theories".
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15-04-2014, 08:12 AM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
(14-04-2014 10:35 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Sorry if I'm jumping in here.

The purpose of tenure in academia is to protect the integrity of research and study. A professor that has controversial research or explores ideas considered offensive needs the protection of tenure to allow unfettered intellectual exploration . I support tenure for college professors and researchers.

I have a hard time believing tenure is necessary for primary and secondary schools. That is not the place for academic exploration. These teachers are hired for their technical teaching abilities, and should be teaching the curriculum, not exploring new areas of research. I do not believe these teachers should be entitled to teach outside the curriculum. Their classrooms are not their platform for advocacy or free speech.

Arguments about evolution in this thread are a red herring . Evolution should be in the curriculum, and if it is not, the issue is properly addressed in the courts as an issue of separation of church and state. If individual free speech of primary and secondary school teachers is a paramount right, then it is for both teachers who teach science and those who want to teach "alternate theories".

Such tenure as it exists in the specifically American context is down to one thing only:
a desire not to be fired at any time for no reason.

I don't begrudge people that attitude. It's all well and good to say things like that shouldn't matter, but the reality is that the system only exists as it does because those things do matter. And lag time to resolve legal challenges is extremely long.

Notwithstanding that "fire bad people lol" remains staggeringly facile.

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15-04-2014, 01:09 PM
RE: Kansas takes away teacher tenure
I'm from Kansas and my mother is a recently retired teacher from the Wichita area.

Having many long discussions with her about the educational state in Kansas alone and having been through and currently sending kids through the public education system this is what I see as a major problem.

1. Government overreach and poor policy. Standardized testing requirement to get funds has turned our educational system from teaching kids how to think while providing them with facts to teaching to a test so the school can get more money.

This what one of the biggest reasons why my mom began to hate the profession she used to love.

2. Worthless parents. The ones who are not there for their children or who don't care about education enough to work with their children to make sure they do well.

3. Helicopter/overprotective/overzealous parents. Oh my little Johnny is perfect and I'm going to make sure that everything is perfect and if he gets a bad grade I'm going to blame the teacher and not that my child isn't doing the work.(this does not include crappy teachers.)

4. Crappy teachers. If you can't inspire kids to want to learn you shouldn't be in the business. You can technically know the subject matter and be able to share that knowledge but if you can't excite people about it then you are failing at your job. An example of this would be my American history teacher in HS. I hated history, it was by far the subject I disliked the most. He was able to make the subject matter interesting and inspired you to want to learn the subject matter. It makes a difference.

5. Crappy administrators.

A distant 6th is lazy kids but that can go back into #1 as influences.

There are far more ineffective teachers out there than most people want to admit. Especially if you want to start teaching kids how to think and not teaching to a test.
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