Karl Marx
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27-08-2010, 10:57 AM
RE: Karl Marx
Yeah I agree with you in that the morality thing doesn't really get anywhere. I guess we can just leave it that there are moral and immoral poeple on both sides. Also, morality can be a matter of opionion. For example, I go to strip clubs and some poeple think that's immoral, but I don't. People have actually even said that the reason I go is because I am an atheist, and I just say to them wow you think that christians don't go in there either?
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27-08-2010, 05:17 PM
RE: Karl Marx
Hey, dtwpuck.

Quote:Besides, I kind of agree with Sam Harris inasmuch as liberal religion offers tacit support to radical religion.

Wurt? I've never heard of this idea. Could you explain a little?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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27-08-2010, 06:34 PM
 
RE: Karl Marx
(27-08-2010 05:17 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, dtwpuck.

Quote:Besides, I kind of agree with Sam Harris inasmuch as liberal religion offers tacit support to radical religion.

Wurt? I've never heard of this idea. Could you explain a little?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Liberal believers are so lapsed in their faith they might as well not associate themselves with the institution of religion. By continuing to be part of it and offer support, despite barely holding its principles, liberal believers are emboldening and supporting their more radical counterparts.

Of course, you will ask for a more direct link (like with religion and war). That is valid, and I will let someone else take that for now.
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27-08-2010, 11:48 PM
RE: Karl Marx
Ugh...

I don't want a more direct link, I want to know what Harris said. I don't understand. Your response didn't help me understand.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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28-08-2010, 06:48 AM
RE: Karl Marx
If you want to know what he said then read his book "The End of Faith".

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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28-08-2010, 07:20 AM
 
RE: Karl Marx
(27-08-2010 11:48 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Ugh...

I don't want a more direct link, I want to know what Harris said. I don't understand. Your response didn't help me understand.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

I would refer you to "Letter To A Christian Nation". He addresses his belief in many places in the treatise, however I think that the first few pages clarify his position quite well.

"Of course, there are Christians who do not agree with either of us. There are Chrisians who consider other faiths to be equally valid paths to salvation. . . .These Christians often describe themselves as 'religious liberals'. . . . From their point of view you and I have both misunderstood what it means to be a person of faith. . . .

. . . I have written elsewhere about the problem I see with religious liberalism and religious moderation. Here we need only observe that the issue is both simpler and more urgent than liberals and moderates generally admit. Either the Bible is just an ordinary book, written by mortals, or it isn't."

Mr Harris goes into great depth on this issue in other works as well, as he indicates. Being a believer is the problem, the source of evil. (my words) I agree with him that the wishy washy accommodation that liberal Christians offer stands as a huge problem, a permission to be unethical. The Bible/faith is not a very good source or moral goodness, whether you interpret it liberally or strictly.

Anyway, I wish to say that this interpretation is my own. Others might disagree. But this sentiment strongly resonated with me enough to cause me to read all of his books. It made a point I had not ever considered until then. And, that very point caused me to reconsider my own accommodating stand toward religious belief.
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29-08-2010, 06:25 PM
RE: Karl Marx
Hey, dtwpuck.

Thanks for that. But I still don't think I understand the idea. I think there's a context to that quote that isn't immediately apparent to me.

Out of curiosity, when you reconsidered your accommodating stand toward religious belief, what did your stance become?

Hey, TruthAddict.

Quote:Liberal believers are so lapsed in their faith they might as well not associate themselves with the institution of religion. By continuing to be part of it and offer support, despite barely holding its principles, liberal believers are emboldening and supporting their more radical counterparts.

I've been reading this and rereading this. Do you mean that the institution is the radical counterpart or that the institution supports radical counterparts therefore so do the lapse believers or am I still not getting it?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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31-08-2010, 05:48 AM
 
RE: Karl Marx
(26-08-2010 08:53 PM)BnW Wrote:  (excerpt)
I don't think there is any exclusivity to the moral high ground. There are plenty of people from all walks of life and beliefs that look out for their fellow man or who will steal, murder or con their fellow man. Atheists may not be as well represented in prisons as theists but that can also be a pure numbers game.

For your reference, I send you <a href="http://thethinkingatheist.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=522">here</a>

I think that when people go to prison, they take the default position of "Christian" just as they do when filling out employment applications in the UK. I don't think that it's worthwhile or reliable to search for religious demographics in a pool where people have something to gain (anonymity) by assuming a role or a world-view. There's no way to account for honesty in such a study.

ETA: Apparently I can't code HTML worth a damn anymore.
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31-08-2010, 08:17 AM
RE: Karl Marx
Not your bad, Soldieringon. Your HTML is fine. The forum uses BBcode rather than HTML in its posts, though, so the code for your link would be [ url = http://thethinkingatheist.com/forum/show...hp?tid=522 ] here [ / url ] with the spaces removed.

Like so.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this forum does not automatically bold or underline links. Anything I post in bold is a link.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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03-09-2010, 08:11 AM
 
RE: Karl Marx
(29-08-2010 06:25 PM)Ghost Wrote:  
Quote:Liberal believers are so lapsed in their faith they might as well not associate themselves with the institution of religion. By continuing to be part of it and offer support, despite barely holding its principles, liberal believers are emboldening and supporting their more radical counterparts.

I've been reading this and rereading this. Do you mean that the institution is the radical counterpart or that the institution supports radical counterparts therefore so do the lapse believers or am I still not getting it?

The intent of this, if I can be so bold as to try to interpret what someone else has said, is that "moderate" believers have chosen not to accept the content of their sacred texts (e.g., the bible) literally word-for-word as absolute truth. When god of the old testament calls for killing homosexuals, they don't rush out to their local gay bar with guns blazing. In effect, they're "cherry-picking" what's in their sacred texts and creating a purely personal interpretation of their declared religion. Although I prefer moderates to extremists, for obvious reasons, at least the extremists are behaving in a way that's consistent with their dogma.

A big problem with moderates, though, is that for the most part, they fail to repudiate the violent acts of the extremists. Most moderate christians don't endorse the murder of abortion doctors but they also don't publicly repudiate it, either. I wrote an essay about this ..

http://www.flame.org/~cdoswell/religious...ation.html
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