Ken Ham: Atheists Reject Creationism In Public Schools Because They're 'Insecure'
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03-03-2017, 04:10 AM
RE: Ken Ham: Atheists Reject Creationism In Public Schools Because They're 'Insecure'
What I find most disturbing is that what he's done to his children. He's indoctrinated them with Bronze Age mythology and what I assume is just a straw-man caricature of evolution, and he actually seems proud of it! In reality, he has done his children a grave disservice. I'm not sure what's worse: the fact that his kids are likely to spend the rest of their lives being intellectually stunted, or the fact that he'll probably never realize how reprehensible his actions are. In a very real sense, he has betrayed his own kids.

Ironically, the whole argument from fairness fails as soon as you realize how patently unfair it would actually be to insert creationism into public science curricula. Dr. Ken Miller gave a great talk about how scientific theories have to survive a rigorous process of repeatable testing and peer review before they ever become eligible for textbook inclusion, but the creationists want to bypass all that and have their ancient heap of bovine feces go straight from mere hypothesis (at best) to textbook material.

Nope, nothing unfair about that. Dodgy

The only sacred truth in science is that there are no sacred truths. – Carl Sagan
Sōla vēritās sancta in philosophiā nātūrālī est absentia vēritātum sanctārum.
Ἡ μόνη ἱερᾱ̀ ἀληθείᾱ ἐν φυσικῇ φιλοσοφίᾳ ἐστίν ἡ ἱερῶν ἀληθειῶν σπάνις.
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03-03-2017, 06:56 AM
RE: Ken Ham: Atheists Reject Creationism In Public Schools Because They're 'Insecure'
Indoctrination makes me utterly sick. It's mind rape, and I consider it as damaging as child abuse of various kinds. People are so scared of their kids thinking for themselves that they have to produce little robotic parrots before they get to the age of reason. Now that's being insecure.

You're absolutely right about fairness. Also, to be consistent, you'd have to allow any religious "theory" that anyone wants to present. That could be virtually anything. I think the universe was created by a magic pancake, and you need to be taught about the different flavours it went through while it made everything.

Not only is that obviously stupid, and unfair to actual science like you say, but there just isn't time to "teach" every hair-brained idea anyone can come up with in a science class. That's why it's reduced down to actual science, by the scientific method. Clue is in the name.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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03-03-2017, 07:15 AM
RE: Ken Ham: Atheists Reject Creationism In Public Schools Because They're 'Insecure'
(03-03-2017 06:56 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Indoctrination makes me utterly sick. It's mind rape, and I consider it as damaging as child abuse of various kinds. People are so scared of their kids thinking for themselves that they have to produce little robotic parrots before they get to the age of reason. Now that's being insecure.

You're absolutely right about fairness. Also, to be consistent, you'd have to allow any religious "theory" that anyone wants to present. That could be virtually anything. I think the universe was created by a magic pancake, and you need to be taught about the different flavours it went through while it made everything.

Not only is that obviously stupid, and unfair to actual science like you say, but there just isn't time to "teach" every hair-brained idea anyone can come up with in a science class. That's why it's reduced down to actual science, by the scientific method. Clue is in the name.

Agreed.

I think Richard Dawkins said it best when he described faith and religion as a type of "Brain Virus". Infecting children with dogma that is for many, very hard to overcome. Not to mention the atrocities committed in the name of religion and religious beliefs.

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03-03-2017, 07:23 AM
RE: Ken Ham: Atheists Reject Creationism In Public Schools Because They're 'Insecure'
Absolutely. I think the vaccine, if anything will ever get through, is education. The more people understand about the world through scientific methods, the less sense their magical stories are going to make. That's why extremely religious people are so anti-science in general. They're literally competing with reality, so reality must be hidden away.

Also, critical thinking. It's amazing how bad people can be at this if they've never been challenged. I love the Socratic method for this reason.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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03-03-2017, 07:32 AM
RE: Ken Ham: Atheists Reject Creationism In Public Schools Because They're 'Insecure'
(03-03-2017 07:23 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Absolutely. I think the vaccine, if anything will ever get through, is education. The more people understand about the world through scientific methods, the less sense their magical stories are going to make. That's why extremely religious people are so anti-science in general. They're literally competing with reality, so reality must be hidden away.

Also, critical thinking. It's amazing how bad people can be at this if they've never been challenged. I love the Socratic method for this reason.

Exactly.

Neil Degrasse Tyson explained it pretty well on one of his Q & A's. As science makes ever more discoveries and religious people try to rationalize those discoveries (Dark Matter might be God for instance) that if that is what your basis is of God is to you... Then God will be pushed into an ever smaller corner and for those types of people they will be sorely disappointed.

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03-03-2017, 07:40 AM
RE: Ken Ham: Atheists Reject Creationism In Public Schools Because They're 'Insecure'
(03-03-2017 07:23 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Absolutely. I think the vaccine, if anything will ever get through, is education. The more people understand about the world through scientific methods, the less sense their magical stories are going to make. That's why extremely religious people are so anti-science in general. They're literally competing with reality, so reality must be hidden away.

Also, critical thinking. It's amazing how bad people can be at this if they've never been challenged. I love the Socratic method for this reason.

I think that better vaccine is material and psychological security which can be provided by state. If I'm not mistaken Scandinavian countries aren't much into religion and gov is concerned with citizens.

There is merit in this Marx quote: Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.


Indoctrination comes before education - first you're with your parents, school comes after.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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03-03-2017, 07:44 AM
RE: Ken Ham: Atheists Reject Creationism In Public Schools Because They're 'Insecure'
If atheists reject creationism in schools because we are "insecure," then why do religious people like Ham exclude evolution from their churches and "museums?" Consider

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03-03-2017, 08:18 AM
RE: Ken Ham: Atheists Reject Creationism In Public Schools Because They're 'Insecure'
(03-03-2017 07:44 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  If atheists reject creationism in schools because we are "insecure," then why do religious people like Ham exclude evolution from their churches and "museums?" Consider

Because there's no need to give lies equal time with The Truth Rolleyes

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-03-2017, 08:41 AM
RE: Ken Ham: Atheists Reject Creationism In Public Schools Because They're 'Insecure'
(03-03-2017 08:18 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(03-03-2017 07:44 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  If atheists reject creationism in schools because we are "insecure," then why do religious people like Ham exclude evolution from their churches and "museums?" Consider

Because there's no need to give lies equal time with The Truth Rolleyes

I always forget about *The Truth ™












*Terms and conditions may apply. Not everything in The Truth ™ is true. Not responsible for loss of money on faith-based schemes, death, or serious injury

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03-03-2017, 10:15 AM
RE: Ken Ham: Atheists Reject Creationism In Public Schools Because They're 'Insecure'
(02-03-2017 06:28 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Teaching creationism?

"Some people think everything was made by magic. Okay, back to science..."

That's exactly what I was thinking only you put it more succinctly. It may be a case of "be careful what you wish for" because you might get it. If they were to teach creationism side by side with evolution then it would take quite a while to lay out the evidence for evolution while creationism would be very thin in comparison and as you say "Some people think everything was made by magic".

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