Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
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04-09-2015, 08:47 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(04-09-2015 08:36 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
Quote:The only law she broke was defying the judges order, that she change her conscious.

This is called contempt you retard.

Duh.

She didn't break the law when she refused to sign marriage licenses. Just like her son who still refused to sign marriage licenses for gay couples, hasn't broken the law, hence why he's not facing penalties as of yet.

She's in jail for refusing a judges order that she break her conscious will. In the case it wasn't even her refusal to continue to sign marriage licenses, but her unwillingness to give her blessing to other clerks who would do so in her place.

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04-09-2015, 08:49 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(04-09-2015 08:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 08:20 AM)morondog Wrote:  I'm not a lawyer, you idiot. You clearly must be, since you clearly know better than a judge who spent time evaluating her case. Why don't you write to the judge and point out to him his error, since her fate concerns you so much?

I know man, we should avoid speaking of unjust court decisions, unless we're lawyers and judges.

Next time the Iranians execute an atheists, I'll remember that.

My grammar-sense is tingling here . . .

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04-09-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(04-09-2015 08:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 08:36 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  This is called contempt you retard.

Duh.

She didn't break the law when she refused to sign marriage licenses.

Yes, she did.

Quote:Just like her son who still refused to sign marriage licenses for gay couples, hasn't broken the law, hence why he's not facing penalties as of yet.

She refused to let her office issue marriage certificates. If it was just her, then it would still be a violation of her oath of office.

Quote:She's in jail for refusing a judges order that she break her conscious will. In the case it wasn't even her refusal to continue to sign marriage licenses, but her unwillingness to give her blessing to other clerks who would do so in her place.

You are flat-out wrong. It was her decision to not allow anyone issue the licenses that made this a federal matter.

And don't you think it's about fucking time for you to address the fact that she was denying the rights of others?

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04-09-2015, 08:55 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(04-09-2015 08:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 08:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I know man, we should avoid speaking of unjust court decisions, unless we're lawyers and judges.

Rolleyes You've just repeatedly stated that it was unjust and the laws were made up. You haven't stated a reason why. You just dislike the decision. Boohoo for you.

Also, yeah, you can discuss it all the fuck you want. You can say "I think it was unjust", but you're right there saying "She doesn't deserve to go to jail" Full stop. I Tomasia have evaluated this case and I find the defendant not guilty. Fuck due legal process, fuck applying the law consistently to everyone. Purely by my feels I have decided.

When asked to back up your feels you retreat to this ridiculous posturing.

Actually a juror has every right to judge the fairness and/or morality of the law and apply it as they see fit. It’s called Jury Nullification. Very few judges or prosecutors are willing to inform juries of this ability, and some would tell them it doesn’t exist even though it is well established in case law.

Fortunately jury nullification doesn’t apply to Kim Davis’ case as she hasn’t had a jury trial. It is perfectly legal to lock her up for contempt of court for failing to obey a lawful court order. The courts don’t need a jury to do that, and she could walk out of jail any time she wants by simply agreeing to comply with the law and do her lawful duty as a dully elected public servant.

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04-09-2015, 09:24 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(04-09-2015 08:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  And don't you think it's about fucking time for you to address the fact that she was denying the rights of others?

What's there for me to address here? Was I suppose to think that what she was doing was right? Far as I'm concerned she could have been an gay atheist refusing to grant a marriage license to me for being a Christian, and I still would not support her being jailed for this. In fact those who sued Kim Davis are not in support of her being jailed.

What good comes out of jailing her? Is she just being thrown in jail to get around the inability to remove her from office, so others can take on her role in her absence? Is it just a technical means around this? I guess in the mean time we'll work on developing laws to insure that others like her can be removed from office, without the need of jail time?

Is to make an example, to make a resounding noise to all those multitudes who cling in support of her, of what would await them as well?

Does it really show what those signs suggest, "love wins". The only thing that won here is contempt.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-09-2015, 09:36 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(04-09-2015 09:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 08:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  And don't you think it's about fucking time for you to address the fact that she was denying the rights of others?

What's there for me to address here? Was I suppose to think that what she was doing was right? Far as I'm concerned she could have been an gay atheist refusing to grant a marriage license to me for being a Christian, and I still would not support her being jailed for this. In fact those who sued Kim Davis are not in support of her being jailed.

What good comes out of jailing her? Is she just being thrown in jail to get around the inability to remove her from office, so others can take on her role in her absence? Is it just a technical means around this? I guess in the mean time we'll work on developing laws to insure that others like her can be removed from office, without the need of jail time?

Is to make an example, to make a resounding noise to all those multitudes who cling in support of her, of what would await them as well?

Does it really show what those signs suggest, "love wins". The only thing that won here is contempt.

She is being jailed for contempt of court the same as anyone else who defied a court order. She has the option to leave that cell immediately on either A) Agreeing to follow the order B) Resigning (as she should have done when it became apparent she could no longer do her job in good conscience) C) Taking the Judge's offer to simply allow everyone else in her office to do their jobs and not prevent the distribution of marriage certificates.

Not sure where you got your law degree (Google U maybe?) but if you are held in contempt you can be fined or jailed until you are no longer in contempt, this is not a unique or unusual situation. In fact a former TV Judge , Joe Brown, was sent to jail for contempt of court for simply cursing at a judge. Defying a court order will land you in jail regardless of why you are defying the order and that is what happened here.

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04-09-2015, 09:37 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(04-09-2015 09:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 08:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  And don't you think it's about fucking time for you to address the fact that she was denying the rights of others?

What's there for me to address here? Was I suppose to think that what she was doing was right? Far as I'm concerned she could have been an gay atheist refusing to grant a marriage license to me for being a Christian, and I still would not support her being jailed for this. In fact those who sued Kim Davis are not in support of her being jailed.

What good comes out of jailing her? Is she just being thrown in jail to get around the inability to remove her from office, so others can take on her role in her absence? Is it just a technical means around this?

Yes. And to try to allow the system to continue and if she doesn't comply eventually get it to the process of officially removing her from her position.
Quote: I guess in the mean time we'll work on developing laws to insure that others like her can be removed from office, without the need of jail time?
No, not really.

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04-09-2015, 09:38 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(04-09-2015 08:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Find me the exact law she broke as a clerk?

She didn't break any laws by refusing to sign marriage licenses.

The only law she broke was defying the judges order, that she change her conscious.

Kentucky Revised Statutes, section 403.760 - Contempt of Court

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/statute.aspx?id=17482

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04-09-2015, 09:43 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(04-09-2015 04:57 AM)julep Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 04:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  How does anyone support her being jailed? I can understand her being fired for not being willing to fulfill the role her job requires, but being jailed for this?

An NPR story I heard yesterday said that the judge felt that fining her wouldn't be appropriate--possibly because she could use donated money for the fines or refuse to pay them somehow? (I'm not sure). The judge's other option was jail, so that was the one used.

She can't be fired; she has to be impeached. She has also forbidden other clerks in her office from issuing marriage licenses, so she is not just exercising her personal conscience, she is requiring her employees to break the law also.

If she is requiring her subordinates to break the law (rather than just refusing to add her signature) then she is denying them the right to practice their religion, which may tell them they should obey the law.

Regardless, she broke the law, continued to break the law when ordered by the court to follow the law, and in the name of following her religion, she denies other people the right to follow theirs by getting married.

There's a saying in prison: Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. She could have resigned her job if she really felt she could not comply with the legal obligations which she swore to fulfill. She chose to break the law. She took an oath, and she violated that oath. She goes to jail.

By the way, she was sent to jail, not prison. There's a big difference. Some posters above have mentioned prison. In any case, Hollywood greatly exaggerates the dangers of jail and prison. The reality is far too dull for popular entertainment. Boredom will be the extent of her punishment. And she will be happy thinking of herself as a martyr, even though she's not. She stood up for what she believes in, which is bigotry and hatred of people who love someone of the same sex and intolerance for religions other than her own, many of which accept marriage equality.

The winners are the same-sex couples who will now be able to get married, starting today.

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04-09-2015, 09:49 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
The instant courts stop locking people up for direct contempt, they lose their power to enforce anything. The entire legal system would fall apart, as prosecutors would have no reason to turn over Discovery orders, as witnesses could refuse to answer questions (other than self-incriminating ones protected by the 5th), as divorcees could just keep their property instead of turning over what has been decreed to belong to the former spouse, as the Southern states could have just ignored every order given by federal courts during the Civil Rights movement.

If you cannot understand why she has to be locked up, not to "break her will" but to ensure the system has the actual power to continue to function, then you have no idea how the legal system works.

She is not a martyr, she is the Governor of Alabama trying to keep integration from happening.

If you can tell me how this clerk is one bit different from this guy, I'd like to know:
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