Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
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09-09-2015, 11:18 AM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2015 11:22 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(09-09-2015 11:03 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 11:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Her beliefs were the motivation for her actions. Motivation is an important factor in penalizing someone. Perhaps you have heard of the phrase, "Means, Motive, and Opportunity".

Hand waving her beliefs away is looking at this situation one dimensionally.

I am not saying her cherry-picked belief system (which she has been called out for) was not what motivated her, however what motivated the court was not that belief but her actions. She has always had many many options other than breaking the law she however has chosen to do just that.

Rosa Parks had other option too other than breaking the law. She could have moved to the back of the bus, she could have gotten off the bus. However she chose to break the law and was jailed for it. The court was motivated to send Parks to jail because she broke the law....not because she was black. You see you can make the same argument you made about the clerk and apply it to Parks just as well.

Now If I were to come on here and claim that Parks skin color had nothing to do with her incarceration, you guys would be breaking my balls....for good reason. The same is true here. This woman was jailed for standing up for her beliefs just as Parks was jailed for standing up for her beliefs.

If you are going to dismiss the beliefs of this woman and hold the other woman's beliefs as relevant, then it is you who are doing the cherry picking.
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09-09-2015, 11:21 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(09-09-2015 11:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 10:47 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Wow really, Kim Davis is the bus driver that told Parks to get to the back of the bus. She was not jailed for her religious beliefs just her actions in illegally preventing qualified people from using a government service.

Her beliefs were the motivation for her actions. Motivation is an important factor in penalizing someone. Perhaps you have heard of the phrase, "Means, Motive, and Opportunity". They are the three aspects of a crime that must be established before guilt can be determined in a criminal proceeding.

Hand waving her beliefs away is looking at this situation one dimensionally.

Does not matter what the motivation is when you discriminate. Would I need to explain why as a manager, I might treat white employees better? Does that change the fact that I violate anti-discrimination laws in the workplace? Why do you have to be a moron and defend the actions on this person, who used her personal beliefs to disobey her oath and the law? Motive is only used to single out the criminal and eliminate other suspects -- that is all.

Explain to me when a motive was a consideration in a discrimination case, and affected the resulting punishment?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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09-09-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(09-09-2015 10:45 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  This is like saying Rosa Parks wasn't jailed for being black but instead jailed for refusing to move to the back of the bus. Parks could have moved, it was her choice not too.

The obvious difference being that one act of civil disobedience was designed to expand the rights of all Americans, while the other act, by Davis, was in order to deny some Americans their rights.

This is why your comparison fails, and why you're read more for amusement than serious conversation.

Not all civil disobedience is equal ... especially when it is perpetrated by a civil servant who swore an oath to do her duties, "so help [her] God".
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09-09-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
Oh and nice try Heywood - using Rosa Parks (who stood for eliminating discrimination) as a comparison to this stupid slob (who is promoting discrimination). You are a pathetic and sad slow-minded individual. A$$HAT!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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09-09-2015, 11:27 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(09-09-2015 11:21 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 11:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Her beliefs were the motivation for her actions. Motivation is an important factor in penalizing someone. Perhaps you have heard of the phrase, "Means, Motive, and Opportunity". They are the three aspects of a crime that must be established before guilt can be determined in a criminal proceeding.

Hand waving her beliefs away is looking at this situation one dimensionally.

Does not matter what the motivation is when you discriminate. Would I need to explain why as a manager, I might treat white employees better? Does that change the fact that I violate anti-discrimination laws in the workplace? Why do you have to be a moron and defend the actions on this person, who used her personal beliefs to disobey her oath and the law? Motive is only used to single out the criminal and eliminate other suspects -- that is all.

Explain to me when a motive was a consideration in a discrimination case, and affected the resulting punishment?

I forgive you for calling me a moron.

She wasn't jailed for discriminating. The woman stopped issuing marriage licenses to everyone whether they be gay or straight couples. She was jailed for refusing to follow a court order to start issuing marriage licenses.
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09-09-2015, 11:28 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
You beat me to it Thump! If someone compared this slob to Rosa Parks in person to me, I would need to restrain from fingering their entrails right then and there.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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09-09-2015, 11:31 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(09-09-2015 11:26 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Oh and nice try Heywood - using Rosa Parks (who stood for eliminating discrimination) as a comparison to this stupid slob (who is promoting discrimination). You are a pathetic and sad slow-minded individual. A$$HAT!

I forgive you for calling me that nasty thing. I hope one day you will be capable of engaging in a civil conversation.

I used Rosa Parks to show that beliefs are relevant issues in cases of civil disobedience. You can't just hand wave them away just because you don't like the person standing up for their beliefs. Those beliefs still exist and are a factor.
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09-09-2015, 11:36 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(09-09-2015 11:31 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I used Rosa Parks to show that beliefs are relevant issues in cases of civil disobedience. You can't just hand wave them away just because you don't like the person standing up for their beliefs. Those beliefs still exist and are a factor.

It is legal to be a conscientious objector. It is not legal to pick and choose orders once deployed.

You're not that stupid, but you're certainly an avid collector of bad arguments.

... this is my signature!
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09-09-2015, 11:44 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(09-09-2015 11:36 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 11:31 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I used Rosa Parks to show that beliefs are relevant issues in cases of civil disobedience. You can't just hand wave them away just because you don't like the person standing up for their beliefs. Those beliefs still exist and are a factor.

It is legal to be a conscientious objector. It is not legal to pick and choose orders once deployed.

You're not that stupid, but you're certainly an avid collector of bad arguments.

You're not that stupid either. Surely you are aware it was illegal at the time for Parks to sit at the front of the bus.
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09-09-2015, 11:45 AM
RE: Kentucky gay marriage license hold out jailed!
(09-09-2015 11:27 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  She was jailed for refusing to follow a court order to start issuing marriage licenses.

And rightfully so.
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