Kentucky school shooting
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28-01-2018, 06:00 PM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
I may have posted earlier that I've been a owner and shooter since 1965. I'm not an abolitionist by any means. But I do in know there's a problem when 3% of the gun owners in the country own 50% of the guns. That's 123,000,000 guns in the hands of less that 90,000 people.
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29-01-2018, 08:39 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
Not surprisingly, this thread is already devolving into another thread about gun control. I am an advocate of some gun control and I also don't find it inappropriate to be discussing gun control in the wake of these shootings.

However, that wasn't the point of this thread. And the endless arguments about gun control have gotten our society no place and many more kids are now dead while our measures are still ineffective. So I was looking for other ideas.

We can implement gun control measures and that might even cut down on the number of these school shootings (although I find that point somewhat arguable), but guns are still going to make it to school. We can't take all guns away from all people and, given that, there will always be irresponsible gun owners who don't manage to keep their guns out of reach of their children. Gun control may reduce the number of school shootings, but it won't eliminate them. I realize this is a pipe dream, but if we actually could stop all the guns that reach the school from making it inside the school or doing any killing, then gun control would be unnecessary. That's why I think the primary focus for a solution should be on the schools.

In reality though, it's impossible to stop every gun from getting into schools so I do see gun control as relevant, but as more of a backup plan. The fewer guns that make it to schools, the fewer need to be stopped from getting inside. So gun control is useful, but I think the number 1 focus needs to be at the school because that's the only possible catch-all. Some schools have implemented searches and use metal detecting wands. Some have on-site police or security officers. Some have anti-bullying programs and/or programs designed to identify students at risk for becoming violent. Each of these need to be at all schools, but they aren't and primarily due to funding from what I understand. So one focus needs to be on finding that funding.

Another idea is parent education. Schools can hold parental meetings to teach parents how they can help reduce the chances of a school shooting. Granted a lot of parents won't attend, but some will just because of the subject. Even if only a few irresponsible gun owners attend and are reminded of the importance of locking away their guns and making sure their kids can't get a hold of them, it could do some good. Or maybe help with recognizing signs in their children that something is really wrong and some direction with what to do to figure out what's going on with them and to help them could make some difference.

I think a multi-pronged approach is needed, but primarily focused on schools and parents. But the approach needs to be applied at every school, not just the ones that can currently afford it.

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29-01-2018, 09:15 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
I'll stop talking about when it isn't a problem any more.
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29-01-2018, 09:19 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
I thought the idea that Gawdzilla mentioned sounded pretty good. Hold the owner responsible if someone gets shot with their gun, even if they aren't the one who pulls the trigger. Dunno how practical that would be though? Also you'd need a certain degree of nuance - if someone nicks your gun from a well secured cabinet then the intent is theirs, whereas if e.g. a kid has easy access to your guns that's a problem.

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29-01-2018, 09:28 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
(29-01-2018 09:15 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  I'll stop talking about when it isn't a problem any more.

Do you disagree with what I said then?

(29-01-2018 09:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  I thought the idea that Gawdzilla mentioned sounded pretty good. Hold the owner responsible if someone gets shot with their gun, even if they aren't the one who pulls the trigger. Dunno how practical that would be though? Also you'd need a certain degree of nuance - if someone nicks your gun from a well secured cabinet then the intent is theirs, whereas if e.g. a kid has easy access to your guns that's a problem.

I agree this is a good idea, although I didn't get that meaning from Gawdzilla's post since he mentioned "responsible gun owners". If kids unwittingly get a hold of a parent's gun, I would classify them as "irresponsible gun owners".

Time has a good article about that here.

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29-01-2018, 10:40 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
(29-01-2018 09:28 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(29-01-2018 09:15 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  I'll stop talking about when it isn't a problem any more.

Do you disagree with what I said then?

(29-01-2018 09:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  I thought the idea that Gawdzilla mentioned sounded pretty good. Hold the owner responsible if someone gets shot with their gun, even if they aren't the one who pulls the trigger. Dunno how practical that would be though? Also you'd need a certain degree of nuance - if someone nicks your gun from a well secured cabinet then the intent is theirs, whereas if e.g. a kid has easy access to your guns that's a problem.

I agree this is a good idea, although I didn't get that meaning from Gawdzilla's post since he mentioned "responsible gun owners". If kids unwittingly get a hold of a parent's gun, I would classify them as "irresponsible gun owners".

Time has a good article about that here.
Everybody I've ever talked to claimed to be a "responsible gun owner". NRA propagandists talk about "the rights of the vast majority, the responsible gun owners". Everybody is a responsible gun owner until they aren't. This is why I transfered all my firearms when I brought an untrained person into my home. (And married her, but that's neither here nor there.) If we had a sarcasm font it would be used for "responsible gun owner".
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29-01-2018, 11:14 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
(29-01-2018 10:40 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Everybody I've ever talked to claimed to be a "responsible gun owner". NRA propagandists talk about "the rights of the vast majority, the responsible gun owners". Everybody is a responsible gun owner until they aren't. This is why I transfered all my firearms when I brought an untrained person into my home. (And married her, but that's neither here nor there.) If we had a sarcasm font it would be used for "responsible gun owner".

Got it. So then I agree with the point that the gun owners need to be accountable. When kids bring the parents' guns to school, those parents need serious consequences. If a shooting happens with their gun, the parents should also be considered guilty of the shooting IMO and the same laws applied as though they pulled the trigger. And this would be part of the multi-pronged approach. (I think exceptions can be made though if it can be shown that parents took reasonable precautions such as locking the guns away, but the kid figured out a way to get past that somehow that wasn't the parents' fault - like maybe picking the lock).

I also think, if this started happening, some of the kids who otherwise might plan to shoot up a school and then shoot themselves, might think twice knowing their parents would go to jail. Might. Of course, they may also come from really screwed up homes and therefore not care at all. But, the more things there are that potentially stop at least a few would-be shooters, the greater the chances of stopping these tragedies in general.

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29-01-2018, 12:23 PM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
I would have been completely blase about the Y-donor going to jail. He did things that should have landed in him in prison anyway.

Back on track. Most gun deaths in the US are accidental. Thirty-four people die for every "bad guy" killed with a gun. Mom leaves a gun under the cushions "just in case" there's a home break-in. Junior finds it and shoots Sissy because she ate his Tide pod.
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29-01-2018, 12:38 PM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
(29-01-2018 10:40 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(29-01-2018 09:28 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Do you disagree with what I said then?


I agree this is a good idea, although I didn't get that meaning from Gawdzilla's post since he mentioned "responsible gun owners". If kids unwittingly get a hold of a parent's gun, I would classify them as "irresponsible gun owners".

Time has a good article about that here.
Everybody I've ever talked to claimed to be a "responsible gun owner". NRA propagandists talk about "the rights of the vast majority, the responsible gun owners". Everybody is a responsible gun owner until they aren't. This is why I transfered all my firearms when I brought an untrained person into my home. (And married her, but that's neither here nor there.) If we had a sarcasm font it would be used for "responsible gun owner".

I hate to get all semantic and shit (not really) but there's a better word that can sidestep the responsible / irresponsible thing... accountable.

The shooter is responsible*; the owner can be held accountable.

* i.e. responsible for their action assuming they don't fit into a legally defined category e.g. senile, infantile, insane.

It could be possible therefore to penalise (and various bands or tiers of penalty/punishment can be easily imagined) both the responsible party and also a different (or the same) accountable party or only the latter on a case by case basis.
Examples:
- A gun shop sells a gun to someone who has been certified as senile
- A parent who lets their child carry a gun.
- An owner who has reported a stolen gun which is then used in a crime
- An owner who has not reported a stolen gun which is then used in a crime

Accountable vs. Responsible is already very well-known distinction in business and many legal systems too.

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29-01-2018, 12:57 PM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
I'm using, and mocking, the NRA's pet phrase.
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