Kentucky school shooting
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30-01-2018, 09:54 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
(30-01-2018 08:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Does anyone have any ideas about what else BESIDES gun control can be done? As I just said in response to Brian (but it's actually for everyone discussing gun control in this thread), I was hoping this thread would be about other things. There are plenty of other threads for gun control discussions.

I wonder though, is there much point to talk about what else can be done besides gun control? It sounds a bit like talking about elephant conservation and saying "Excluding not shooting elephants, what *else* can we do to help preserve these magnificent beasts". Sure, habitat conservation, breeding programmes, zoos, developing tourism other than hunting, but if they're still getting shot in large numbers all the rest is of somewhat limited effect...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-01-2018, 10:05 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
(30-01-2018 09:54 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(30-01-2018 08:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Does anyone have any ideas about what else BESIDES gun control can be done? As I just said in response to Brian (but it's actually for everyone discussing gun control in this thread), I was hoping this thread would be about other things. There are plenty of other threads for gun control discussions.

I wonder though, is there much point to talk about what else can be done besides gun control? It sounds a bit like talking about elephant conservation and saying "Excluding not shooting elephants, what *else* can we do to help preserve these magnificent beasts". Sure, habitat conservation, breeding programmes, zoos, developing tourism other than hunting, but if they're still getting shot in large numbers all the rest is of somewhat limited effect...
We don't have to stop talking about A in order to talk about B. For example, I'm peripherally involved in a project that will "ranch" rhinos. Keeping the species alive for the future by confining them right now to protected areas.
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30-01-2018, 10:46 AM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2018 11:32 AM by Kaneda.)
RE: Kentucky school shooting
(29-01-2018 01:42 PM)SYZ Wrote:  And I'm sure the families of the victims couldn't care less one way or the other whether the media are debating increased gun control or not.
They'll inevitably be in shock and too overwhelmed with grief to be thinking critically about firearm legislation.

^^^Also wanted to say you're really driving at something here when you talk about families being too overcome by grief to really do anything substantive to better their situation. Naomi Klein wrote a whole book on this subject that came out last decade called The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism. It's all about how companies, economic institutions and powerful individuals have and continue to exploit disasters and national crises to funnel wealth out of vulnerable countries. It's mostly referred to as economic "shock therapy," wherein they privatize national services and push though austere policies when people are too weakened or distracted to mount an effective resistance.

It's gotten it's own share of pushback in its time, mostly from economists who claiming it conflates all free market orthodoxy with predatory capitalism. I wouldn’t take that critique all too seriously though; they're mostly sidestepping the important point of the book.

But I digress...
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30-01-2018, 10:56 AM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2018 11:06 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: Kentucky school shooting
(30-01-2018 09:54 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(30-01-2018 08:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Does anyone have any ideas about what else BESIDES gun control can be done? As I just said in response to Brian (but it's actually for everyone discussing gun control in this thread), I was hoping this thread would be about other things. There are plenty of other threads for gun control discussions.

I wonder though, is there much point to talk about what else can be done besides gun control? It sounds a bit like talking about elephant conservation and saying "Excluding not shooting elephants, what *else* can we do to help preserve these magnificent beasts". Sure, habitat conservation, breeding programmes, zoos, developing tourism other than hunting, but if they're still getting shot in large numbers all the rest is of somewhat limited effect...

No he's correct.
Nobody seriously considers fighting the opiate problem by outlawing needles.
I guarantee that that very school in Kentucky has been there for decades and probably hasn't had a single shooting.
During most of that time guns were probably much easier to get than they are now.
Access to guns has never been the reason for mass shootings.
People have had access to guns for centuries.
Most of that time with no restrictions at all.
If the answer to every single problem that society encounters is going to be prohibitions and new laws where are we going?
We aren't addressing any of the actual causes and instead putting increasing limitations of the actions of all citizens who don't break any laws.
It's a police state. Does anyone really want to further empower the police and government?

In the end I think it's clear that the solutions to any of these things are not going to be any simple act of law or prohibition.
And besides it won't win.
Every indicator is that in most areas of the country gun control is political suicide.
Money from the NRA or gun lobbies is beside the point.
Even here in New York state. Outside of areas around the city support for it is suicide for a politician.

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30-01-2018, 11:08 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
(30-01-2018 10:56 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(30-01-2018 09:54 AM)morondog Wrote:  I wonder though, is there much point to talk about what else can be done besides gun control? It sounds a bit like talking about elephant conservation and saying "Excluding not shooting elephants, what *else* can we do to help preserve these magnificent beasts". Sure, habitat conservation, breeding programmes, zoos, developing tourism other than hunting, but if they're still getting shot in large numbers all the rest is of somewhat limited effect...

No he's correct.
Nobody seriously considers fighting the opiate problem by outlawing needles.
I guarantee that that very school in Kentucky has been there for decades and probably hasn't had a single shooting.
During most of that time guns were probably much easier to get than they are now.
Access to guns has never been the reason for mass shootings.
People have had access to guns for centuries.
Most of that time with no restrictions at all.
If the answer to every single problem that society encounters is going to be prohibitions and new laws where are we going?
We aren't addressing any of the actual causes and instead putting increasing limitations of the actions of all citizens who don't break any laws.
It's a police state. Does anyone really want to further empower the police and government?

In the end I think it's clear that the solutions to any of these things are not going to be any simple act of law or prohibition.
And besides it won't win.
Every indicator is that in most areas of the country gun control is political suicide.
Money from the NRA or gun lobbies is beside the point.
Even here in New York state. Outside of areas around the city support for it is suicide for a politician.
That was wholly absurd.
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30-01-2018, 11:13 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
(30-01-2018 10:56 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  No he's correct.
Nobody seriously considers fighting the opiate problem by outlawing needles.
I guarantee that that very school in Kentucky has been there for decades and probably hasn't had a single shooting.
During most of that time guns were probably much easier to get than they are now.
Access to guns has never been the reason for mass shootings.
People have had access to guns for centuries.
Most of that time with no restrictions at all.
If the answer to every single problem that society encounters is going to be prohibitions and new laws where are we going?
We aren't addressing any of the actual causes and instead putting increasing limitations of the actions of all citizens who don't break any laws.
It's a police state. Does anyone really want to further empower the police and government?

In the end I think it's clear that the solutions to any of these things are not going to be any simple act of law or prohibition.
And besides it won't win.
Every indicator is that in most areas of the country gun control is political suicide.
Money from the NRA or gun lobbies is beside the point.
Even here in New York state. Outside of areas around the city support for it is suicide for a politician.

I follow the political suicide argument. I don't follow the rest. The question of gun control is simply, does it work or not? The whole police state argument is a bit bullshit I think - no one seriously thinks they'll get away with shooting a policeman do they? And your police are already well armed and have a reputation for being oppressive, at least to some communities.

I'm happy not to go down this road though. I'm definitely no expert - just a member of the peanut gallery. But I think it's daft to take this option off the table from the get go.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-01-2018, 11:15 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
The system is to find things that might work and say they won't work. Classic NRA.
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30-01-2018, 11:23 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
(30-01-2018 11:08 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  That was wholly absurd.

What I find absurd is people whining on and on about the actions of the police and the government and then continuously insisting that the solution for all of societies ills is more laws and government control.
Clearly that is direction that leads down a very dark rabbit hole.

I mean yes something has to be done but usually the best solutions that get floated involves schools with metal detectors and mandatory searches. Taking guns away from people who have owned them for literally generations as guaranteed by the constitution and having never had a single incident of violence or accident or anything.
The point is that we never needed to consider putting metal detectors in schools.
But in this wonderful new age we do.
I'm a boomer and have always been very much a progressive but I think simple logic could suggest that we look back to a time when we didn't NEED to be talking about these sorts of measures.
Call me crazy but it seems like a no brainer.
Or we could just take away everybodies guns.
And better yet we could install microchips in everybodies neck to track every citizens movement.
That would work.

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30-01-2018, 11:24 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
(30-01-2018 11:23 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(30-01-2018 11:08 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  That was wholly absurd.

What I find absurd is people whining on and on about the actions of the police and the government and then continuously insisting that the solution for all of societies ills is more laws and government control.
Clearly that is direction that leads down a very dark rabbit hole.

I mean yes something has to be done but usually the best solutions that get floated involves schools with metal detectors and mandatory searches. Taking guns away from people who have owned them for literally generations as guaranteed by the constitution and having never had a single incident of violence or accident or anything.
The point is that we never needed to consider putting metal detectors in schools.
But in this wonderful new age we do.
I'm a boomer and have always been very much a progressive but I think simple logic could suggest that we look back to a time when we didn't NEED to be talking about these sorts of measures.
Call me crazy but it seems like a no brainer.
Or we could just take away everybodies guns.
And better yet we could install microchips in everybodies neck to track every citizens movement.
That would work.
Why did you quote me?
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30-01-2018, 11:27 AM
RE: Kentucky school shooting
Education. Somehow, through my formative schooling years, I was brought up to think and ask questions. It was practically a public school mantra and it was certainly my patents' instruction.

Somehow, I was continually advised to consider consequences and consider these consequences thoroughly before acting in any way. Also somehow, empathy seemed to be intricately entwined into most every consequence to be considered.

Action may very well be the answer to your questions. Although, if your action harms you or someone else, you may need to answer your questions differently. Shy

***

It appears that these people who do these "spontaneous mass shootings" (though many are very obviously planned out, well in advance) want them to be quite public. They seem to want others to see that they had no alternative to their predicament.

Something is wrong here if a 15 year old feels so desperate, that the only thing he can think to do to get attention, is to kill. The same goes for a middle-aged person. How is it that killing is the only thought that comes to mind, to alleviate matters?
.....

But of course, we don't have to worry ... I'm sure someone is out there, praying away. Luckily, it's all in someone else's hands.

Yaknow? Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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