Kids and gender identity
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11-11-2014, 06:37 PM
RE: Kids and gender identity
After reading this thread, I decided I like you people. Not that I didn't before but I likes all y'alls more! Not that nintenecle...oh they got banned! Great then I can really mean it then!

If that was my girl going to a sleepover, I wouldn't care. If they know/feel that they are a female, then they're a female. Perhaps somewhere in the back of my mind, I would be a little concerned that it could be cover-up for a boy getting around a bunch of girls but I'd figure that she wouldn't be invited if the parent of the girl who's housing the sleep over didn't trust her. Plus if it really somehow was a cover up, I doubt a boy would be able to hold his own against a group of angry girl. Seriously, he'd be sorry for pretending to identify as a girl if he was pretending just to sleep with them/see them dress/whatever.

Also, thanks to dancefortwo and jojo for your stories and insight. Kind of how I started drifting from Mormonism. Well, not me as the one changing my gender/sexual orientation. Had a good college friend that shortly after I met them began transitioning from female to male (took forever to get his name changed on his diploma). Knew it wasn't "right" but he was still a great person and who knows their own selves than that person? How were they evil if they clearly didn't act possessed and was a good person? Why would god punish them for being who they knew they were? Same thing when my two friends went into a relationship and tried to explain though one was heterosexual and the other was asexual that they were only lesbians for each other. Quite honestly I'm glad because I wouldn't like being so conflicted about LBGTQIA+ (I feel like I'm missing letters...sorry if I am) and I hated wanting to accept people but feel like I couldn't just cuz who they were attracted to. Not to mention if I didn't meet them or question my beliefs, my life would be missing RuPaul's Drag Race. God I love that show. "Good luck and don't fuck it up!"

I'm also interested in whatever research you got to share, dancefortwo. If you feel it in your heart to post it here Smile

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11-11-2014, 06:45 PM
RE: Kids and gender identity
I'm utterly amazed at the changes that have been taking place in society with regard to LGBT issues, particularly trans. Just 20 years ago the fight was entirely legal. For example in the UK a post-op trans woman would be thrown into a male prison if she committed a crime. Ironically same sex marriage was the only option for them. Now the struggle is for social change. The internet has changed so much. It used to be that people would only transition once they had became middle aged or even older and had finally given up trying to convince themselves. Now there's the chance for children to not only find out what's actually wrong but to find help and medical support but also not be physically beaten to a pulp by their peers.

There was not a single out gay or trans person in school when I left in the early 90's. The first gay man I came across was in my first year at university and I was amazed to find that he had come out at 6th form college. He drank a bottle of vodka a night as a result.
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11-11-2014, 09:21 PM
RE: Kids and gender identity
(11-11-2014 06:23 PM)jojorumbles Wrote:  @ dancefortwo

Your daughters experience closely mirrors my own, and I suspect many other transgender people as well. The oversleeping, the depression, the suicidal tenancies, the mimicry and pretending to be a gender you don't feel, all common themes from what I've heard from others.

The oversleeping, depression, and suicidal tenancies are actually all rolled into one issue specifically. A lot of people have a hard time understanding how anyone can descend into suicidal thoughts and attempts. It's not an instant thing, it's a long process.

From personal experience, when I slept I'm female. I feel at peace, I feel like a whole and complete human being. I feel happy. But when I woke up I was physically male. I felt fragmented, disfigured, disgusting, horrified and anxious. The only time I felt ok and happy was when I was asleep, so I slept more and more each day until it devolved into sleeping every moment I could. Asleep was heaven, awake was a nightmarish hell. I wasn't engaged in this world because, frankly, my dreams were far more pleasant than reality.

I then got to thinking if I could slip into a coma I could be happy. From there the train of thought went to going to sleep permanently by death. I could be free of this nightmare because anything in the afterlife, heaven hell or otherwise, would be a vast improvement from continuing to live. After my second failed suicide attempt, I was convinced that the reason why I didn't die the second time was because I was actually in the literal hell as described in church. It wasn't fire and brimstone, but an ever eternal misery and sorrow without end. I didn't know any better at the time. I had a family, but I was completely alone and without anyone to talk to about this stuff.

I dragged on with life, not really caring about anything or anyone. I didn't care about my grades in school, I had zero ambition, I didn't date. I continued to do the bare minimum required because I thought I was forever stuck like this. I've made several attempts to make the best of it, but it was futile. I played the game, I tried to blend in, and not draw attention to myself. I observed men and how they behave, then tried to mimic that as best I could. Football, beer, and being tough are what I should be into. Don't cry, don't show emotion other than happy or angry, stay away from pink anything, walk and talk in an alpha male way. It was awful, it was unnatural to me, and it felt weird doing it. Plus you can only keep up the facade for so long before it tears you apart on the inside. You pretend to be someone you're not for so long that you have no idea who you really are.

I can definitely see mental illnesses developing from suppressing gender identity, but I wouldn't call gender dysphoria itself a mental illness. Religious folks often say it is a mental illness and the only treatment is akin to gay conversion therapy. Currently, the only known effective treatment to gender dysphoria is transitioning and, in more extreme cases, sex reassignment surgery (aka SRS).

The surgery is crazy expensive and usually not covered by health insurance. The doctor I want to see charges $25,000 plus extra for complications and such. She's really good though, the best in the world.

Yes, I didn't know what to do about the constant sleeping and when she was awake she played video games or simply stayed in her room. From my perspective I was watching someone who was one of the walking dead. There was no light in her face, her blue eyes looked dark even though the color was still blue.

I once counted 20 hours of sleep every day for a week but thought it was the anti psychotic medication. I didn't know what to do. Should I try to help her, should I give her something to do like have her help make dinner or should I just let her be? Should I knock on her door and wake her up? It was such a helpless feeling. All I wanted to do was take away her pain.

One time I had to physically pick her up from her bed, prop her against me and sort of escort her to the car for a psychologists appointment.

The effect of her depression took on a life of it's own sometimes. After she had a wisdom tooth removed she took a painkiller and freaked out. She came downstairs, grabbed a butcher knife and ran out into the night. I went searching for her and found her down the street crouching and shaking uncontrollably next to a car with the butcher knife still in her hand. I got down on my hands and knees and inched towards her telling her that I was her mother and that she was going to be ok. I finally got the knife from her and walked her home.

There were a few more ups and downs but nothing as extreme as that.

Then she started spending two hours in the bathtub every night but I could tell that she was thinking about something. Mulling things over. It was at this point that we changed psychologists and this new doctor had had many years with transgender clients. It made a world of difference.

Not long after this she started transitioning. Even within the first two weeks there was a difference. After two months there was a light in her face that I hadn't seen since before puberty which was an extremely difficult time for her. She continued to progress, sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly. Once in a while she would go back to sleeping for long hours but it wouldn't last but a couple of days.

When she started transitioning several friends didn't return her calls anymore. Out of the 8 or so friends she had 2 stayed by her side throughout her ordeal and they've remained close to her. I can't thank them enough and their parents had a lot to do with it. All are freethinking, open minded people.

By the way, at the same time this was happening my youngest daughter was dating a boy whose family were extreme fundamentalists and the boyfriend was causing more havoc in our household. Partly it wasn't his fault, it was the freakin', crazy, religious, nutcase parents of the boyfriend. I was calling Family Protective Services on the parents for locking the boyfriend out of the house when he did something the parents didn't like. The only way they'd let him in was if he recited several paragraphs from the Bible. I wanted to go over and punch those parents in the face. It went on for over two years. But this is a whole 'nother story.

Back to my oldest daughter.

She seemed to take baby steps. She didn't want to go out and buy clothes yet so I did it for her. It was a difficult step for me too. It was times like this that I knew I'd lost my son. But as painful as it was it was nothing compared to what I saw her go through.

Once while I was buying some clothes for her in a department store a gossipy neighbor spotted me. She knew something was going on with our son/daughter. She could see the physical changes and I could tell she wanted to pump me with questions but I diverted her questions, much to her annoyance, and excused myself and went elsewhere.

My daughters biggest goal is to pass as female. Not to stand out like a freak or look like something from La Cage aux Folles. She simply wants to blend quietly into society without causing a stir. Those who didn't know her before her transition would never guess that she transitioned. My husband and I still see remnants of a boy though, especially at certain angles. I don't think I can forget her past and I don't think I should. How can I erase 18 years of my life?

As long as I know she's happy in her skin, that's the most important thing in anyones life. We should all be happy in our skin. It's as simple as that.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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11-11-2014, 09:31 PM
RE: Kids and gender identity
Hug you are such an awesome mom, Dance. Your daughters are so lucky to have you. The world would be a much better place with more moms like you Heart Hug

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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12-11-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: Kids and gender identity
Now if I may ask, does anyone have any scientific papers on this gender issue.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
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12-11-2014, 03:50 PM
RE: Kids and gender identity
(12-11-2014 03:41 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Now if I may ask, does anyone have any scientific papers on this gender issue.

I had some but after reinstalling both operating systems I would need to find them again. I know though that there are papers comparing brain scans on brains of trans- and cis-gendered people.

Just checking some threads though where I have posted links before comes up with:

Transsexual differences caught on brain scan


Transsexual and Intersex Gender Identity
An evolving page, showing papers, URLs to those papers, and quotes (usually from the abstracts) showing the significance of those papers.
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12-11-2014, 03:53 PM
RE: Kids and gender identity
(12-11-2014 03:50 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(12-11-2014 03:41 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Now if I may ask, does anyone have any scientific papers on this gender issue.

I had some but after reinstalling both operating systems I would need to find them again. I know though that there are papers comparing brain scans on brains of trans- and cis-gendered people.

Just checking some threads though where I have posted links before comes up with:

Transsexual differences caught on brain scan


Transsexual and Intersex Gender Identity
An evolving page, showing papers, URLs to those papers, and quotes (usually from the abstracts) showing the significance of those papers.

Splendid, I might do a post in the future on this.

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12-11-2014, 06:17 PM
RE: Kids and gender identity
There is also these. Not sure if this was already posted.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19955...t=Abstract

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1....85.5.6564

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v37...068a0.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980...t=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024

This is information on the digit ratio of the human hand and prenatal exposure to testosterone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/w...ratio.html

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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12-11-2014, 06:34 PM
RE: Kids and gender identity
(12-11-2014 06:17 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  There is also these. Not sure if this was already posted.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19955...t=Abstract

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1....85.5.6564

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v37...068a0.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980...t=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024

This is information on the digit ratio of the human hand and prenatal exposure to testosterone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/w...ratio.html

Oops. My first five items are compiled in Mathilda's link.

The digit ratio isn't though.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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