Kids are the key, but why aren't they?
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01-11-2017, 01:22 PM
Kids are the key, but why aren't they?
Last night I was passing out the candy to the kids for Halloween. There were the really small ones who were probably experiencing their first Halloween and had that look of bewilderment as they tried to figure out what it is all about while following their parents' guiding words. Then there were the somewhat older ones holding out their bags with the serious all-business-like look because this was still somewhat new to them. Then there were the ones that had been doing this for a few years confidentally holding out their bags with that smiling look of anticipation. And finally there were the older kids who had done this many times before and had the look of having a great time with friends. And I was thinking about how much I love kids and how much they contribute to our world just by being themselves.

Today, because of the latest terrorist attack in New York, I was thinking about terrorism and also suicide bombers. I was thinking about kids being raised in isolation by terrorists just so they can be shielded from reality, indoctrinated about a fake "reality", and used. And I was wondering how in the hell anyone can believe that raising kids to go kill other people by killing themselves can possibly be pleasing to any being that should be labeled "god". And I was wondering what brings a person to a point that they lose sight of the absolute joy that is children such that they could subject these innocent kids to such abuses.

And I was wondering how it is that anyone can believe that a being worthy of the god label - never mind being pleased by suicide bombings - would, moreover, even allow it. But, of course, it's not just suicide bombings, but also kids with cancer, muscular dystrophy, Downs Syndrome, missing limbs, blindness, deafness, or any number of other diseases, deformities, or disabilities. And it's kids who are being raped, beaten, neglected or otherwise abused. And it's impoverished kids.

The reason I'm focused specifically on kids isn't only because that hits home especially strongly, but also because of the typical "explanation" for the incongruence - namely, we did it to ourselves in the form of sin. It's supposedly the human condition as the result of sin; something all humans suffer because of this human condition so it impacts the innocent as well as guilty.

What's frustrating as hell is how even this serves as an "adequate" explanation for so many. It's like saying I sinned so now that innocent 1 year old over there gets to suffer my consequences along with me. WTF? Facepalm

I have long believed that people accept this because they really haven't thought it through. They have been told how things "are" by their religious leaders and it sounds like it makes some sense on the face of it so they accept it without giving it much thought. I know, first hand, that giving such things further thought can easily lead to atheism because it did for me. So, it follows then that they must not be giving it that further thought. Right?

Wrong. What's most frustrating of all is, I have pointed out all of the above to some people - thus, providing that further thought, or at least opening the door to it, but they still just don't get it. And I don't get that.

For me, kids are the key. Kids bring out a special sensitivity because they are innocent and vulnerable. We more easily and readily see potential or actual harms to them because they depend on us to do so and we naturally assume that role. They're adorable and lovable and so easily evoke our sympathies and this makes it so much easier to recognize injustices such as the ones most atheists recognize in the god concepts. It seems like discussing kids should be key to helping people out of indoctrination because they should be more open to recognizing the indefensible incongruities. So why isn't it key? What are we missing? How do we make it key?

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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01-11-2017, 02:14 PM
RE: Kids are the key, but why aren't they?
(01-11-2017 01:22 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Last night I was passing out the candy to the kids for Halloween. There were the really small ones who were probably experiencing their first Halloween and had that look of bewilderment as they tried to figure out what it is all about while following their parents' guiding words. Then there were the somewhat older ones holding out their bags with the serious all-business-like look because this was still somewhat new to them. Then there were the ones that had been doing this for a few years confidentally holding out their bags with that smiling look of anticipation. And finally there were the older kids who had done this many times before and had the look of having a great time with friends. And I was thinking about how much I love kids and how much they contribute to our world just by being themselves.

Today, because of the latest terrorist attack in New York, I was thinking about terrorism and also suicide bombers. I was thinking about kids being raised in isolation by terrorists just so they can be shielded from reality, indoctrinated about a fake "reality", and used. And I was wondering how in the hell anyone can believe that raising kids to go kill other people by killing themselves can possibly be pleasing to any being that should be labeled "god". And I was wondering what brings a person to a point that they lose sight of the absolute joy that is children such that they could subject these innocent kids to such abuses.

And I was wondering how it is that anyone can believe that a being worthy of the god label - never mind being pleased by suicide bombings - would, moreover, even allow it. But, of course, it's not just suicide bombings, but also kids with cancer, muscular dystrophy, Downs Syndrome, missing limbs, blindness, deafness, or any number of other diseases, deformities, or disabilities. And it's kids who are being raped, beaten, neglected or otherwise abused. And it's impoverished kids.

The reason I'm focused specifically on kids isn't only because that hits home especially strongly, but also because of the typical "explanation" for the incongruence - namely, we did it to ourselves in the form of sin. It's supposedly the human condition as the result of sin; something all humans suffer because of this human condition so it impacts the innocent as well as guilty.

What's frustrating as hell is how even this serves as an "adequate" explanation for so many. It's like saying I sinned so now that innocent 1 year old over there gets to suffer my consequences along with me. WTF? Facepalm

I have long believed that people accept this because they really haven't thought it through. They have been told how things "are" by their religious leaders and it sounds like it makes some sense on the face of it so they accept it without giving it much thought. I know, first hand, that giving such things further thought can easily lead to atheism because it did for me. So, it follows then that they must not be giving it that further thought. Right?

Wrong. What's most frustrating of all is, I have pointed out all of the above to some people - thus, providing that further thought, or at least opening the door to it, but they still just don't get it. And I don't get that.

For me, kids are the key. Kids bring out a special sensitivity because they are innocent and vulnerable. We more easily and readily see potential or actual harms to them because they depend on us to do so and we naturally assume that role. They're adorable and lovable and so easily evoke our sympathies and this makes it so much easier to recognize injustices such as the ones most atheists recognize in the god concepts. It seems like discussing kids should be key to helping people out of indoctrination because they should be more open to recognizing the indefensible incongruities. So why isn't it key? What are we missing? How do we make it key?

Like the nuns say: Give me a child and I'll show you a good Catholic.

Indoctrination is powerful. All these adults were once children too...

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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01-11-2017, 02:53 PM
RE: Kids are the key, but why aren't they?
Yes, that's very true, but I was once an indoctrinated kid too and yet the incongruity between "all good" and so much of what we witness was enough to break me out of it. So I'm trying to identify why it works for some, but not others.

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01-11-2017, 03:22 PM
RE: Kids are the key, but why aren't they?
(01-11-2017 02:53 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Yes, that's very true, but I was once an indoctrinated kid too and yet the incongruity between "all good" and so much of what we witness was enough to break me out of it. So I'm trying to identify why it works for some, but not others.

The problem of evil is data that falsifies the concept of a good god, now a believer is faced with a choice when presented with such data. Accept apologist explanations, rationalize away the conflict or seriously question their god concept.

This is ultimately a very personal choice that individuals make, some are too scared to even venture into the territory of questioning as they risk hell.

There's a lot of stopgap measures that can stop a person from breaking away from faith.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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01-11-2017, 03:23 PM
RE: Kids are the key, but why aren't they?
(01-11-2017 02:53 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Yes, that's very true, but I was once an indoctrinated kid too and yet the incongruity between "all good" and so much of what we witness was enough to break me out of it. So I'm trying to identify why it works for some, but not others.

Indoctrination works so well with children because they are supposed to follow all instructions so they can survive - like the cave-man told his son not to cross that river because there are savages there, and cave-mom told her daughter not to pick the red berries because they make you hurt. The cave-kids now follow this a life time and make sure their kids follow it, too. If they question it, they might die.

This is still one of our human features. But, like all human features, they are constantly pushed to extremes by evolution, to see what works best going forward. So you have some people who are near impossible to indoctrinate, and some who eat everything up.

But you do have the middle of the curve, and among them you get people crossing over the line due to reasoning.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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01-11-2017, 10:19 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2017 10:28 PM by M. Linoge.)
RE: Kids are the key, but why aren't they?
(01-11-2017 01:22 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Today, because of the latest terrorist attack in New York, I was thinking about terrorism and also suicide bombers. I was thinking about kids being raised in isolation by terrorists just so they can be shielded from reality, indoctrinated about a fake "reality", and used. And I was wondering how in the hell anyone can believe that raising kids to go kill other people by killing themselves can possibly be pleasing to any being that should be labeled "god". And I was wondering what brings a person to a point that they lose sight of the absolute joy that is children such that they could subject these innocent kids to such abuses.

I’m guessing it has to do with rationalizing their own hostility. We’re an aggressive species and the religious who don’t believe our ancestors had to fight for survival need to make sense of their inherited instincts.
Plus, the whole jihad idea is framed in an almost indistinguishable concept from the stories all boys grow up with.
An old man, preferably with a white beard, sits you down while you’re still malleable and trusting and sez; “You have an amazing destiny.” Further elaborating how you have been chosen to fight the wretched enemies of God, save the world from wickedness and then you’ll get the girl. (And another girl , and another girl, and another girl, all the way up to 72.)
The hero surrounded by monsters, fighting a battle he’s predestinated to win.
It’s the basis for most of our movies, books and games. It’s an idea that sells for a reason.
Lastly, if you don’t believe in death, what’s to stop you from blowing up a kid (as a means to win your war)? You KNOW he’ll go to Heaven. You’re practically doing him a favor.
Add it all together…..

Quote:The reason I'm focused specifically on kids isn't only because that hits home especially strongly, but also because of the typical "explanation" for the incongruence - namely, we did it to ourselves in the form of sin. It's supposedly the human condition as the result of sin; something all humans suffer because of this human condition so it impacts the innocent as well as guilty.
What's frustrating as hell is how even this serves as an "adequate" explanation for so many. It's like saying I sinned so now that innocent 1 year old over there gets to suffer my consequences along with me. WTF? Facepalm

You probably won’t find a lot of Christians questioning the “dispersal” of sin.
If they do, it clashes with the belief that another person being sacrificed -scapegoated - for the collective sins of everybody, is a legitimate ritual.
A twisted version of "one for all, all for one".

Quote:Wrong. What's most frustrating of all is, I have pointed out all of the above to some people - thus, providing that further thought, or at least opening the door to it, but they still just don't get it. And I don't get that.

Neither do I. Some people seem to have a remarkably evolved tunnel-vision. Just look at patients with eating disorders, destroying their bodies against all reason. And that’s without a social network encouraging the belief they need to get thinner.

Quote:For me, kids are the key. Kids bring out a special sensitivity because they are innocent and vulnerable. We more easily and readily see potential or actual harms to them because they depend on us to do so and we naturally assume that role. They're adorable and lovable and so easily evoke our sympathies and this makes it so much easier to recognize injustices such as the ones most atheists recognize in the god concepts. It seems like discussing kids should be key to helping people out of indoctrination because they should be more open to recognizing the indefensible incongruities. So why isn't it key? What are we missing? How do we make it key?

By making the wellbeing of living children the first priority.
Here we run into snag, with parents who are scared their kids will burn in Hell if they even think to question the True Word of God. While people keep their attention fixed on the after-death life, real-life problems are not really problems. It’s just another reason to double down on faith to escape into paradise.

Kids are the most important thing in the world. But.....
To a secularist; the wellbeing of a child is determined by his/her mind and body. To a religious person the mind and body plays second and third fiddle to the immortal soul.
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02-11-2017, 07:34 AM
RE: Kids are the key, but why aren't they?
(01-11-2017 03:22 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  This is ultimately a very personal choice that individuals make, some are too scared to even venture into the territory of questioning as they risk hell.
This is probably the biggest reason now that you mention it. It prevents the religious from taking an honest and open-minded look at anything that contradicts their beliefs. They probably recognize the problems I mentioned, but then dismiss them because they're afraid to think about the implications and risk offending their god.


(01-11-2017 03:23 PM)Dom Wrote:  Indoctrination works so well with children because they are supposed to follow all instructions so they can survive - like the cave-man told his son not to cross that river because there are savages there, and cave-mom told her daughter not to pick the red berries because they make you hurt. The cave-kids now follow this a life time and make sure their kids follow it, too. If they question it, they might die.

This is still one of our human features. But, like all human features, they are constantly pushed to extremes by evolution, to see what works best going forward. So you have some people who are near impossible to indoctrinate, and some who eat everything up.

But you do have the middle of the curve, and among them you get people crossing over the line due to reasoning.
Indoctrination certainly must play a role, but I think it also requires a degree of not really facing the realities. At some level they recognize the harms being done to children, but then don't really think about that in much depth. I don't see how a person can really internalize those harms and appreciate just how horrific they are without questioning the goodness of their god. As TheInquisition mentioned, the fear of hell is probably a major factor in why they don't think in more depth about these things.


(01-11-2017 10:19 PM)M. Linoge Wrote:  Lastly, if you don’t believe in death, what’s to stop you from blowing up a kid (as a means to win your war)? You KNOW he’ll go to Heaven. You’re practically doing him a favor.
Yes and no. You're probably right about this and yet I can't imagine, if it was me believing those things, that I could bring myself to blow up a kid no matter how much I thought it would guarantee them heaven. Maybe it's just because I was raised in a different "world".

(01-11-2017 10:19 PM)M. Linoge Wrote:  You probably won’t find a lot of Christians questioning the “dispersal” of sin.
If they do, it clashes with the belief that another person being sacrificed -scapegoated - for the collective sins of everybody, is a legitimate ritual.
A twisted version of "one for all, all for one".
Good point and true. And, of course, that should be another red flag that there is something wrong with the whole story, but we all know it doesn't work that way.

(01-11-2017 10:19 PM)M. Linoge Wrote:  Neither do I. Some people seem to have a remarkably evolved tunnel-vision. Just look at patients with eating disorders, destroying their bodies against all reason. And that’s without a social network encouraging the belief they need to get thinner.
Yes, but eating disorders are at least partially based in a psychological disorder. While I know some would say the same about religious belief, I think it's different.

(01-11-2017 10:19 PM)M. Linoge Wrote:  By making the wellbeing of living children the first priority.
Here we run into snag, with parents who are scared their kids will burn in Hell if they even think to question the True Word of God. While people keep their attention fixed on the after-death life, real-life problems are not really problems. It’s just another reason to double down on faith to escape into paradise.

Kids are the most important thing in the world. But.....
To a secularist; the wellbeing of a child is determined by his/her mind and body. To a religious person the mind and body plays second and third fiddle to the immortal soul.
Yeah, I forgot about the "it's all for your own good" mentality. Dodgy

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02-11-2017, 09:12 AM
RE: Kids are the key, but why aren't they?
(02-11-2017 07:34 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 10:19 PM)M. Linoge Wrote:  Neither do I. Some people seem to have a remarkably evolved tunnel-vision. Just look at patients with eating disorders, destroying their bodies against all reason. And that’s without a social network encouraging the belief they need to get thinner.
Yes, but eating disorders are at least partially based in a psychological disorder. While I know some would say the same about religious belief, I think it's different.

I have no idea. I don't understand any of it, so I'm reduced to make comparisons with other people who exhibit similar behavior.
The only ways for a person to dismiss - or apply selectively - logic that I know of are all tied to psychological trauma or disorders of some sort.
I would love to hear a better explanation. Really. The theories I have now are truly depressing.
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02-11-2017, 09:27 AM
RE: Kids are the key, but why aren't they?
Children are born smarter than their parents and it takes years of hard work to make them dumb enough to live up to the hopes of their elders.
Anyone see a problem?

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02-11-2017, 09:34 AM
RE: Kids are the key, but why aren't they?
(02-11-2017 09:12 AM)M. Linoge Wrote:  I have no idea. I don't understand any of it, so I'm reduced to make comparisons with other people who exhibit similar behavior.
The only ways for a person to dismiss - or apply selectively - logic that I know of are all tied to psychological trauma or disorders of some sort.
I would love to hear a better explanation. Really. The theories I have now are truly depressing.
I suppose you could say some forms of indoctrination can be considered psychological trauma. Fear of hell could certainly fit in there. With eating disorders, the causes are physical (hormonal and genetic), psychological (poor self image, compulsions), and social/environmental (poor family dynamics, stress, social body image pressures, etc.) For religion, there is no physical component or psychological disorder (at least not a necessary one). Belief is almost exclusively socially learned. I think there has to be a degree of suspending thinking in any real depth about anything that contradicts the belief and this is what is so puzzling. When it is something that can hardly be ignored and should even evoke an emotional response (i.e., all the stuff about children I brought up in the OP), it's hard to understand how that suspension of thought can continue.

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