Kill Whitey
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27-06-2016, 03:55 PM
RE: Kill Whitey
(27-06-2016 03:47 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(27-06-2016 03:05 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Just heard on the local news talk radio that Al Qaeda published an article in their online magazine telling lone wolf terrorists in America to only attack white people, so as to not be misconstrued as a hate crime like the Orlando shooting.

Instead of telling me what you heard on a talk radio show, why don't you post a link to the goddam article so I can read it myself. Or is that asking too much from you?


Because I didn't read it on the internet. I heard it on a news report. I figured you all could verify it yourself if you suspected I was making it up. But here you go.

http://www.aina.org/news/20160625001841.htm

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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27-06-2016, 04:48 PM
RE: Kill Whitey
(27-06-2016 03:14 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(27-06-2016 03:09 PM)Dom Wrote:  Why? I thought they hated gays too?

They hate the west period, but the left doesn't think so.

I'm getting a little tired of hearing that. I don't know what crazy idiot might have said otherwise, but I've never EVER heard a liberal (and I am one) say that they don't think the Islamists hate the west, period.

Why won't this stupid, stupid straw-man argument die?

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29-06-2016, 07:11 AM
RE: Kill Whitey
(27-06-2016 03:16 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I doubt lone wolf terrorists would attack the places I hang out, even though there are tons of white people there. Places like Cabela's, Bass Pro Shop, Gun ranges/shops, country music themed bars and restaurants. You know, those locations where we all carry guns and will shoot back.

Expect the next lone wolf attack to happen (again) in a gun free zone. Gay bars. Movie theaters. Malls. Starbucks. Schools. Target department stores.

I wonder how much other people having guns would deter attacks.

If we're just talking about Islamic extremists, looking at past attacks, it seems like
  • Many of them don't even use guns. Having guns doesn't let you shoot back at a pressure cooker bomb.
  • Some gun-based attacks are against very specific targets (see Charlie Hebdo).
  • They're attacking something symbolic (similar to the above point). Certainly, all of your examples could fall under "Western things extremists hate", but unless they want to single that out specifically, they'll likely pick a target that generates more shock and terror. This could be a case where having guns make a place less likely to be targeted, but...
  • The guy who shot up the club in Orlando died there and didn't make any real attempt to escape. Having guns doesn't seem like it'd deter someone who is already planning to die in the attack.
So, I guess Cabela's is safer, compared to a school, from an attacker who wants to use guns to kill a lot of helpless people and get out, but it doesn't seem any safer from ones who want to plant a bomb, want to specifically target Cabela's, or don't care if they die.
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29-06-2016, 07:54 AM
RE: Kill Whitey
(27-06-2016 04:48 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(27-06-2016 03:14 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  They hate the west period, but the left doesn't think so.

I'm getting a little tired of hearing that. I don't know what crazy idiot might have said otherwise, but I've never EVER heard a liberal (and I am one) say that they don't think the Islamists hate the west, period.

Why won't this stupid, stupid straw-man argument die?

Well seeing many left wing countries like sweden trying to defend islam, it is no surprise the left and islam are connected in some way. Notice how I didn't say liberal and I said left wing

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29-06-2016, 08:08 AM
RE: Kill Whitey
(27-06-2016 03:05 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Just heard on the local news talk radio that Al Qaeda published an article in their online magazine telling lone wolf terrorists in America to only attack white people, so as to not be misconstrued as a hate crime like the Orlando shooting.

And, this negates the KKK and Nazi skinhead groups and abortion clinic shooters how?

I am sick of this shit. This is not neutral criticism of Islam, this is ignoring what all religions do to human logic. No shit this sucks, and no, nobody should be using any holy book to justify violence, not even the Quran.

But Islam didn't invent religious justified cruelty nor are they the sole patent owners of religious tribalism.


Going after Muslims Quran based claims for violence everyone should do. But Hitler like Scapegoating isn't mere blasphemy. It was Christians Hitler convinced to murder 6 million Jews and caused the death of 50 million humans as a result of Christian Germans support of Hitler.

I will never object to blasphemy of bad ideas that lead to the harm of others. But I will never value blanket assumptions of guilt of individuals regardless of rightfully pointing out bad ideas.

If you are going to rightfully attack bad ideas of one book, then be fair and don't give any holy book a pass. To solely focus on one book is to set up a future where we forget and become the monsters we say we are rightfully fighting now.


Learn to separate bad claims from human rights. Ideas don't have rights as individual claims, but humans don't deserve to live in fear of violence merely because we may not like what they claim.

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29-06-2016, 08:22 AM
RE: Kill Whitey
(29-06-2016 07:54 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(27-06-2016 04:48 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm getting a little tired of hearing that. I don't know what crazy idiot might have said otherwise, but I've never EVER heard a liberal (and I am one) say that they don't think the Islamists hate the west, period.

Why won't this stupid, stupid straw-man argument die?

Well seeing many left wing countries like sweden trying to defend islam, it is no surprise the left and islam are connected in some way. Notice how I didn't say liberal and I said left wing

Considering Sweden position on the refugee crisis and ISIS, I would be tempted to say that you are talking out of your ass on this specific subject. While its true that Sweden had a very generous position on refugee for humanitarian reasons and are generally pacifist and none interventionist, it doesn't make them Islamist apologist, on the contrary since they are actively fighting it both on the international and local level. In fact, I have yet to see a «left wing» dominated Occidental country that support radical Islamism has a political position. Considering that radical islam is widely recognised as a form of fascism (its true that some organisation have more ties with the extreme left though) due to its stance on private propriety and business laws, your argument that the left and Islamism are connected is a bit strange.

Then again, I am assuming that in your post, you ment Islamism not Islam. If you indeed ment Islam, since its just a religion like all the others, yes, the right of people to have it should be protected.

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29-06-2016, 08:35 AM
RE: Kill Whitey
Quote: "The document, published specifically with a targeted message against Americans..."

It's at times like this that I'm glad I live in Australia. Confused

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29-06-2016, 09:09 AM
RE: Kill Whitey
(27-06-2016 04:48 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(27-06-2016 03:14 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  They hate the west period, but the left doesn't think so.

I'm getting a little tired of hearing that. I don't know what crazy idiot might have said otherwise, but I've never EVER heard a liberal (and I am one) say that they don't think the Islamists hate the west, period.

Why won't this stupid, stupid straw-man argument die?

I`ll take it as it wasn`t a rhetorical question and I will answer it.

Definition of Islamist

Islamist

(Islam) supporting or advocating Islamic fundamentalism

(Islam) a supporter or advocate of Islamic fundamentalism


Definition of fundamentalism

1.
a religious movement characterized by a strict belief in the literal interpretation of religious texts, especially within American Protestantism and Islam.
2.
the beliefs held by those in this movement.
3.
strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles.


It follows that Islamist`s hate for the west ( as you acknowledge it ) comes not from radical Islamic views but from fundamentalistsic Islamic views , meaning it comes from "set of basic ideas or principles" of Islam.

I will quote Sam Harris here:
"Being a fundamentalist is not a problem if the fundamentals of your ideology are not problematic"

So when a *liberal ( more precisely a far left winger ) says "Islam is a religion of peace" he practically denies that a core values of Islam are anti western, which they undoubtedly are.

The statements " Islamists hate the west " and "Islam is a religion of peace" ( in a sense that strict adherents of Islam as an ideology are not anti western ) are contradictory and mutually exclusive statements.

This is the reason why this "strawman" wont die, because it highlights the cognitive dissonance of the far left on this particular matter.

I feel the need to preemptively explain ( like that will stop you from calling me a bigot or at least thinking it ) that this does not mean that every or most or any Muslim must hate the west by default , it means that Islam as an Ideology is against western values, having in mind that Quran itself promotes the violence against non Muslims and also condones the spreading of Islam by violent means.

Most Muslim are peaceful people -- true (because they don`t adhere to core values of Islam ).

Islam is a religion of peace -- not true ( because the core values of Islam are violent , bigoted, anti women, ant gay .... ).

To recapitulate...If you say "Islam is a religion of peace" you are practically denying that Islamist are anti western . This is why people call you out on it, or as you put it "strawmen" you.

This of course goes for Christianity also, anyone claiming that Christianity is a religion of peace would also be wrong.

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29-06-2016, 05:29 PM
RE: Kill Whitey
I don't think you're a bigot, and I think your points are dead-on, here. I don't really call Islam a "religion of peace", any more than I call Christianity a religion of peace.

However, Christianity and Islam are both, at their cores, religions which teach charity and kindness, but which both have roots in extreme barbarism. The cultures of those religions, especially among the fundamentalist versions, tend to adhere to the violent and bigoted aspects, it's true, but there are also moderating and liberalizing forces at work among both-- especially in countries whose cultures encourage secularism, as in the USA. In countries which still maintain a totalitarian outlook/culture, the religious views can be very violent and dangerous-- Christianity has largely managed to shed these trappings, while Islam remains rooted in the perspectives of the past. But I can quote just as many violent verses in the Bible as can be found in the Qur'an.

The argument is not that the religion is "of peace", but that it is not necessarily violent, only that it has developed from the root of a culture which was violent, and remains violent in places without the above influences. Thus, the key to overcoming the problem we face is to liberalize them-- I do not believe that can be done by force, or by portraying Islam itself as inherently the problem, thereby encouraging bigotry and closed-mindedness on both sides.

When I say "Islamist", I refer to those who (rather like our country's thankfully powerless Phelps clan) actually try to build societies that are harmful to those who "believe wrongly", so to speak. Most of the Muslims I have known in my life are of the same opinion as Christians: "yes, I think that is a sin, but that is between them and God". Others are more assholish about it, and the more-liberal-thinking Muslims detest their attitudes, as we do, and as liberalized Christians do.

The simple fact is that you're right-- the only way to have a decent society is to encourage liberalized thinking and respect for individual human rights, and these ideas are in fact contradictory to those Iron Age religions. But that doesn't justify saying "we should kick out all the Christians!" (or saying they are all automatically suspect) any more than it justifies saying the same about Muslims.

Back to the OP... most of the Muslims I have known in life (but not all) have been of the variety in the photo: black power advocates, and I have found most of them to be decent, kind-hearted people, despite all the bigotries they share with my Christian family, which make me a little sick to my stomach. The claim "...is a religion of peace", stated in the face of so much hate and violence, is a wish expressed by good people trapped (though they don't realize it) in a terrible mind-trap of Belief. I feel for them.

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29-06-2016, 06:45 PM (This post was last modified: 30-06-2016 02:07 AM by Slowminded.)
RE: Kill Whitey
(29-06-2016 05:29 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I don't think you're a bigot, and I think your points are dead-on, here. I don't really call Islam a "religion of peace", any more than I call Christianity a religion of peace.

However, Christianity and Islam are both, at their cores, religions which teach charity and kindness, but which both have roots in extreme barbarism. The cultures of those religions, especially among the fundamentalist versions, tend to adhere to the violent and bigoted aspects, it's true, but there are also moderating and liberalizing forces at work among both-- especially in countries whose cultures encourage secularism, as in the USA. In countries which still maintain a totalitarian outlook/culture, the religious views can be very violent and dangerous-- Christianity has largely managed to shed these trappings, while Islam remains rooted in the perspectives of the past. But I can quote just as many violent verses in the Bible as can be found in the Qur'an.

The argument is not that the religion is "of peace", but that it is not necessarily violent, only that it has developed from the root of a culture which was violent, and remains violent in places without the above influences. Thus, the key to overcoming the problem we face is to liberalize them-- I do not believe that can be done by force, or by portraying Islam itself as inherently the problem, thereby encouraging bigotry and closed-mindedness on both sides.

When I say "Islamist", I refer to those who (rather like our country's thankfully powerless Phelps clan) actually try to build societies that are harmful to those who "believe wrongly", so to speak. Most of the Muslims I have known in my life are of the same opinion as Christians: "yes, I think that is a sin, but that is between them and God". Others are more assholish about it, and the more-liberal-thinking Muslims detest their attitudes, as we do, and as liberalized Christians do.

The simple fact is that you're right-- the only way to have a decent society is to encourage liberalized thinking and respect for individual human rights, and these ideas are in fact contradictory to those Iron Age religions. But that doesn't justify saying "we should kick out all the Christians!" (or saying they are all automatically suspect) any more than it justifies saying the same about Muslims.

Back to the OP... most of the Muslims I have known in life (but not all) have been of the variety in the photo: black power advocates, and I have found most of them to be decent, kind-hearted people, despite all the bigotries they share with my Christian family, which make me a little sick to my stomach. The claim "...is a religion of peace", stated in the face of so much hate and violence, is a wish expressed by good people trapped (though they don't realize it) in a terrible mind-trap of Belief. I feel for them.

I agree.

There is just one thing where I think we disagree ( to some extent at least )in regards to the course of action

Quote: Thus, the key to overcoming the problem we face is to liberalize them-- I do not believe that can be done by force, or by portraying Islam itself as inherently the problem, thereby encouraging bigotry and closed-mindedness on both sides.

Of course the liberalization is the best way and of course it can't be done by force, but it also can't be done by "setting a good example" alone.

Constructive criticism is a must. Isn't that the way Christianity was reformed? Isn't that the way we are trying to, metaphorically speaking, "slap some sense " into the remains of Christian fundamentalism?

We are not afraid, in general , that Christians will get radicalized because we criticize Christianity , there is no reason not to hold Muslims, in general, to the same standards.
In fact , not holding them to the same standards and expecting them to not be able to take criticism (like we expect and demand of ourselves as both individuals and as a society ) is a bit bigoted.

Obviously there would be individual cases who would react to criticism extremely negatively and who will get radicalized, but like you Muricans say "you can't make an omelette without breaking few eggs "

Also, buy not taking part in the debate I feel that we are leaving moderate Muslims who are trying to reform and liberalize Islam , to fight alone when they could use our help.

Finally as a matter of principle...no ideology is above criticism.

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