Killing
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10-11-2011, 05:31 PM
RE: Killing
(10-11-2011 12:05 PM)Hamata k Wrote:  Some people in this world are monsters. They live by causing harm to others. It is their way of life and nothing will change them. It is these people tat I say need to be put down like the animals they are. There is no rehabilitation for them.

Animals don't.
Aside from that, i tend to agree that there are a few people so hardened or twisted with hate that they can't ever come back. In any given case, though, it would be very difficult for anyone, and impossible for anyone as ignorant of criminal psychology as i am, to tell which individuals those are. And our current system of "correction" is mostly not even attempting to figure out how to begin to rehabilitate its clients.

Quote: Let's look at the Joker from Batman. The Joker has killed a lot of people because he keeps breaking out no matter how many times he is caught. Batman should have killed him....

Yes, i would have said that myself. Shoulda killed him when you had the chance. We know this, because we've seen the sequel. Batman didn't have that foresight. He could only abide by the rules of an honourable, law-serving hero: once the foe is neutralized, he must inflict no more harm.
And didn't we also say, Gollum shoulda been killed? But Gandalf said, maybe there is a purpose yet for him to serve in life. And there was.
If you haven't read ahead in the script, you can't decide what's best in every case.

Quote:Think about it. By letting the Joker live, Batman is partially responsible for the people killed by the Joker.

This here is very dangerous thinking. If you hold someone responsible for another person's future actions, where does it end? How much prophetic power is a momentary arbiter of life and death expected to possess? Don't pull that captain out of the ocean; he'll only cause another shipwreck - and it will be your fault! Don't sew up this brawler's cuts, let him bleed to death, or he might kill someone next time - and it will be your fault. Run over that drunk driver....
But, suppose he repents and spends the rest of the life you spared in the saving of other lives, the prevention of other crimes, the healing of others' wounds?


Just a word on revenge. I can imagine wanting to hurt someone who has hurt me - wanting it coldly, and for long time. Not at all sure i'd carry out any of the schemes i'd fantasized. Most of us can do a lot of things in imagination that we couldn't do in real life.
A third party is different. Avenging another's death is not about the victim - it's about the bereaved. I think that's a way of coping with emotional pain: easier to plot than adjust to a new reality; easier to hate than to heal. Once you've exacted revenge, there is no more displacement activity: you have to take that next step in your own life, or lose all purpose.
Avenging the injury of another person is even more cowardly and counterproductive: the injured wife or child or friend needs support, warmth, comfort, healing, rebuilding - that is very hard work. Many men would rather escape into anger and revenge-plotting.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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10-11-2011, 05:53 PM
 
RE: Killing
I learnt my English at the age of 14-16 by reading Alistair MacLean books that were smuggled into Hungary from the West. One of my favourite is “Fear is the Key”, in which 2 killers are hunted down and brought to justice and the electric chair for killing the hero’s wife and little child by destroying the small private plane they had been traveling in, to get hold of the gold and emerald they were carrying.

I will never forget the way the book ends:

“I supposed that would always be part of me now, that and the broken-winged DC that lay 580 yards to its south-west, buried under 480 feet of water. For better or worse, it would always be part of me. For worse, I thought, for worse. It was all over and done with and empty now and it all meant nothing, for that was all that was left”.

That is how empty and pointless revenge feels when it is all over.
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10-11-2011, 05:56 PM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2011 06:00 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Killing
(10-11-2011 05:31 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  This here is very dangerous thinking.
Are you saying it is more dangerous than believing in an extant future? The only future is that which we create. Do you want to create a future where the Joker remains a menace?

(10-11-2011 05:53 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  I learnt my English at the age of 14-16 by reading Alistair MacLean books that were smuggled into Hungary from the West. One of my favourite is “Fear is the Key”, in which 2 killers are hunted down and brought to justice and the electric chair for killing the hero’s wife and little child by destroying the small private plane they had been traveling in, to get hold of the gold and emerald they were carrying.

I will never forget the way the book ends:

“I supposed that would always be part of me now, that and the broken-winged DC that lay 580 yards to its south-west, buried under 480 feet of water. For better or worse, it would always be part of me. For worse, I thought, for worse. It was all over and done with and empty now and it all meant nothing, for that was all that was left”.

That is how empty and pointless revenge feels when it is all over.

You have your Gwynnies and I have mine. If it shall come to pass that my name is Justice, then Justice shall prevail. Suicide would surely follow. I do not settle for unfinished calculations in my mathematics. You are not wrong, I am not right.

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10-11-2011, 06:21 PM
 
RE: Killing
(10-11-2011 05:56 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  You have your Gwynnies and I have mine. If it shall come to pass that my name is Justice, then Justice shall prevail. Suicide would surely follow. I do not settle for unfinished calculations in my mathematics. You are not wrong, I am not right.

'Justice' is a human concept, not very well defined, not very well understood. You can argue about it, back and forth, till the ends of time, and still don’t quite get a satisfactory definition.

'Death' is a universal concept, understood by everyone, silencing all but the deluded theists who try to cheat their way out of it. The rest of us are silent when looking death straight in the face, forced to acknowledge our common fate. The enormity of the concept, the overwhelming, relentless truth of it wipes out everything else in its powerful searchlight, shining into the depth of our consciousness.

Plotting revenge, in the name of ‘justice’ is so pitiful an attempt to cheat our way out of facing our human tragedy: the inevitability, finality of death. When you are truly ready to face death, you divest yourself of all human concerns, all social considerations, it is now between you and darkness.

When your life is destroyed by losing the one who meant most to you, nothing else matters any more, not even the last futile attempt of trying to cheat reality by plotting revenge. Suddenly, the world looks like seeing it through an inverted pair of binoculars: tiny and distant. All that is left is you and emptiness.
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10-11-2011, 06:43 PM
RE: Killing
(10-11-2011 06:21 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  'Justice' is a human concept, not very well defined, not very well understood. You can argue about it, back and forth, till the ends of time, and still don’t quite get a satisfactory definition.

'Death' is a universal concept, understood by everyone, silencing all but the deluded theists who try to cheat their way out of it. The rest of us are silent when looking death straight in the face, forced to acknowledge our common fate. The enormity of the concept, the overwhelming, relentless truth of it wipes out everything else in its powerful searchlight, shining into the depth of our consciousness.

Plotting revenge, in the name of ‘justice’ is so pitiful an attempt to cheat our way out of facing our human tragedy: the inevitability, finality of death. When you are truly ready to face death, you divest yourself of all human concerns, all social considerations, it is now between you and darkness.

When your life is destroyed by losing the one who meant most to you, nothing else matters any more, not even the last futile attempt of trying to cheat reality by plotting revenge. Suddenly, the world looks like seeing it through an inverted pair of binoculars: tiny and distant. All that is left is you and emptiness.

Gotta love the poet.

I'm 43 - I go to bed, I don't have to wake up. Yours was a world where death was extant - mine is not. It is not that I am ignorant - if anything, it is because I am mathematical; and all that I am is 4 lines of computer code. Nearly every one has a "greater" opinion of themselves, while my Gwynnies is all that is "great" in me and in the world.

It does not matter if death is the end or not - I am not dead, that is what matters. And me and Zat seem to understand each other - this little back and forth is for general observation. Wink

And Justice - don't think you didn't nail it, don't think I'm wording it. On a lighter note, I may go and kick it with Hamata in the spring for a bit - there's a scary thought. He's got five inches on me, so he can be the hero, I'll be the sidekick, either way, Justice will be served. Cool

Like a graphic novel... Justice can only exist in the Heart at this time. We're working on it.

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10-11-2011, 08:43 PM
RE: Killing
This is all kind of "negative thinking;" not that it should not be done. I have faith (almost wrote "I believe," yikes!) that the umbrella of Atheism requires continual, evolving thought for all who find shelter under her. (Of course she's female, I'm male like that; I'm not defining a word, I'm conceptualizing Big Grin)

For me, killing is mathematical - solving for the zeroes of the quadratic, if you will - as for homicide, that crap don't make my Gwynnies smile - don't be thinking I'm making my Gwynnies unhappy, and we'll all get along just fine and dandy. Big Grin

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10-11-2011, 10:26 PM
RE: Killing
(10-11-2011 05:56 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Are you saying it is more dangerous than believing in an extant future? The only future is that which we create. Do you want to create a future where the Joker remains a menace?

Joker, being fictitious, is not a menace .... unless in the sense of the psychic harm he and his ilk do American youth through a culture utterly preoccupied with evil and violence.

I'm saying:
Which potential killer is ultimately responsible for all the future danger posed by all the other potential killers?
In order to neutralize all menaces forever, you'd have to kill everybody, but if everybody were dead, there would be nobody to menace, which is making doubly sure.
Could work, i suppose.

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10-11-2011, 11:41 PM
RE: Killing
(10-11-2011 10:26 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  
(10-11-2011 05:56 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Are you saying it is more dangerous than believing in an extant future? The only future is that which we create. Do you want to create a future where the Joker remains a menace?

Joker, being fictitious, is not a menace .... unless in the sense of the psychic harm he and his ilk do American youth through a culture utterly preoccupied with evil and violence.

I'm saying:
Which potential killer is ultimately responsible for all the future danger posed by all the other potential killers?
In order to neutralize all menaces forever, you'd have to kill everybody, but if everybody were dead, there would be nobody to menace, which is making doubly sure.
Could work, i suppose.
In a (disturbingly?) real sense, me and Gwyneth Paltrow are one; that in this thread the hypothetical Justice I presumed to be was Avenger of one who would harm her. In a real-world sense, this is ludicrous. It should be obvious this is "graphic-novel-in-the-head" Justice.

What happened to the modern paradigm? Fascism. The fasces were the bundled rods carried by the lictor of a Roman senator, a symbol of law. Never in history was such a distinguished figure seen without an army - and now the Pope has a popemobile.

Yeah, Batman is a greater symbol of Justice than the blind chick with the scales. I seen how she operates, and it doesn't work. It is up to us, the dreamers, the lovers, the creative fringe; to devise new symbology, and set new standard.

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11-11-2011, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2011 11:54 AM by Peterkin.)
RE: Killing
We now have a culture that literally (and even more, cinematographically) believes in fighting fire with fire.
In which it is perceived that the only way to protect ourselves from an evil is to become that evil.
I don't foresee this evolving or mutating: i think it can only end - consume itself in the conflagration it both so fears and yearns for. What rises from the ashes will not be the same old bald eagle... i'm hoping for a meadowlark.

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11-11-2011, 01:12 PM
 
RE: Killing
(11-11-2011 11:49 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  In which it is perceived that the only way to protect ourselves from an evil is to become that evil.

I have never seen it expressed this clearly before -- I wish I could be as succinct as you are. Smile
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