Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
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18-12-2015, 06:20 AM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2015 06:28 AM by Slowminded.)
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 05:51 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 05:07 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  I see that you edited your post and added this sentence. But please take not of my post.


I clearly excluded public service businesses from having the right to refuse service.


If so, then why use the overwrought bakery counter example? Being a business that offers a public service, that kinda shoots your point in it's own foot.

Well, no. Offering service to the public and being a public service is not the same.
Public service is transportation, fire department, hospitals.... Bakery is not a public service.

Public service

Public service[1] is a service which is provided by government to people living within its jurisdiction, either directly (through the public sector) or by financing provision of services. The term is associated with a social consensus (usually expressed through democratic elections) that certain services should be available to all, regardless of income. Even where public services are neither publicly provided nor publicly financed, for social and political reasons they are usually subject to regulation going beyond that applying to most economic sectors. Public policy[2] when made in the public's interest and motivations can provide Public services. Public service is also a course that can be studied at a college and/or university. Examples of public services are the fire brigade, police, army, and paramedics.


(18-12-2015 05:53 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 05:05 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  And what happens if a nazi comes into the Jewish owned bakery and demands a cake with a swastika and a "Happy Auschwitz day" on it? Or a KKK member asking for cake with a depiction of a black man being hanged?
If you owned a bakery would you make such a cake?
If you owned a printing company and someone comes with a request of you printing pamphlet with racial slurs, or a picture of a twin towers collapsing with a "when infidels die, God is happy " writing. Or a picture of a child being decapitated with a sing "Sharia law is God`s will"
How about this, would you print it for the WBC, thinking "Well, I shouldn`t discriminate against their beliefs " or would you think "fuck off , fuckin` bastards"?

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How would you feel if you were required to print that by law?

It works both ways you know. If you don`t want your beliefs being discriminated against and refused to be serviced based on them , than you can´t discriminate against others beliefs no matter how wrong ( you think ) they are.

What you view as a social progress is actually a sward with very sharp edges on both sides , it should be wielded very carefully.

I already don't have to, by law.

Hate speech isn't protected under the First Amendment.

Any other questions?

Yes, one more question.

If you had a company that prints shirts , and Kim Davis herself came in and asked you to print 1000 shirts saying.
"All gays will burn in hell for eternity"
Would you do it?

And don`t give me "hate speech" excuse, it is a religious belief shared by few billion people. So would you discriminate against her religious belief or not?

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18-12-2015, 06:31 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 06:20 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  And don`t give me "hate speech" excuse, it is a religious belief shared by few billion people. So would you discriminate against her religious belief or not?

If a statement qualifies as hate speech, the number of people who believe it is irrelevant.

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18-12-2015, 06:34 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 02:42 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(17-12-2015 01:46 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  But I'm OK if a baker refuses to use his private business to make a cake for a gay wedding.

Except that practicing such discrimination against your customers is explicitly prohibited by law. No different than refusing to serve black customers.

That is only true in states for which sexual orientation is a protected class; it is not in many states, and bakers there are free to discriminate.
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18-12-2015, 06:36 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
IANAL, but AFAIK if I own a t-shirt business, and Kim Davis comes to me, I can tell her that I refuse to do business with her. If I tell her that I refuse to do business with her *because* she is a Christian, then I am discriminating and can probably be sued.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-12-2015, 06:37 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 06:34 AM)julep Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 02:42 AM)morondog Wrote:  Except that practicing such discrimination against your customers is explicitly prohibited by law. No different than refusing to serve black customers.

That is only true in states for which sexual orientation is a protected class; it is not in many states, and bakers there are free to discriminate.

Yay freedom! Rolleyes

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-12-2015, 06:46 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 05:52 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 05:05 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  And what happens if a nazi comes into the Jewish owned bakery and demands a cake with a swastika and a "Happy Auschwitz day" on it? Or a KKK member asking for cake with a depiction of a black man being hanged?
If you owned a bakery would you make such a cake?
If you owned a printing company and someone comes with a request of you printing pamphlet with racial slurs, or a picture of a twin towers collapsing with a "when infidels die, God is happy " writing. Or a picture of a child being decapitated with a sing "Sharia law is God`s will"
How about this, would you print it for the WBC, thinking "Well, I shouldn`t discriminate against their beliefs " or would you think "fuck off , fuckin` bastards"?

[Image: fkco5x.jpg]

How would you feel if you were required to print that by law?

It works both ways you know. If you don`t want your beliefs being discriminated against and refused to be serviced based on them , than you can´t discriminate against others beliefs no matter how wrong ( you think ) they are.

What you view as a social progress is actually a sward with very sharp edges on both sides , it should be wielded very carefully.

It's an interesting debate, but AFAIK the way the law is in US at the moment, private businesses are not allowed to discriminate in offering service to the public. Only certain classes are protected from discrimination in this way - homosexuals and black people are two such classes.

The US has had several high profile cases of bakers (specifically bakers, why they are so bloody crazy about bakers I have no idea) either refusing service to gay people or gay bakers refusing to put anti-gay messages on their cakes, so yes, it very much *does* cut both ways, but I personally think that it's better to have anti-discrimination laws vs free-for-all.

I understand, it`s just that my personal belief is that the law forcing me to provide a service as a privately owned business is infringing on my freedom.
If I don`t want to moan your lawn , I don`t want to moan your lawn and government has no business telling me that I have to.

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18-12-2015, 06:56 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 06:46 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  I understand, it`s just that my personal belief is that the law forcing me to provide a service as a privately owned business is infringing on my freedom.

What if all the grocery stores in an area refuse to sell food to <insert race/religion/gender/orientation>?

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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18-12-2015, 06:57 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 04:01 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 02:42 AM)morondog Wrote:  Except that practicing such discrimination against your customers is explicitly prohibited by law. No different than refusing to serve black customers.

Is it against the law? It shouldn`t be. Any privately owned business that is not a public service should have the right to refuse the service to anybody.

That is merely the thin edge of the wedge of systemic discrimination. We got rid of that, and rightly so. Drinking Beverage

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18-12-2015, 07:00 AM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2015 07:04 AM by Chas.)
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 05:07 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 04:11 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Congrats, you've set back social progress by decades.

Any private business that operates publicly (i.e. offers services to the public) must do so in a nondiscriminatory way.

I see that you edited your post and added this sentence. But please take not of my post.

Quote:Is it against the law? It shouldn`t be. Any privately owned business that is not a public service should have the right to refuse the service to anybody.

I clearly excluded public service businesses from having the right to refuse service.

The law applies to every business that serves the public. Every one of them.

And your ridiculous examples are ridiculous.
Refusing to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple is not anything like refusing to put offensive messages on a cake.

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18-12-2015, 07:11 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 06:46 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  I understand, it`s just that my personal belief is that the law forcing me to provide a service as a privately owned business is infringing on my freedom.
If I don`t want to moan your lawn , I don`t want to moan your lawn and government has no business telling me that I have to.

You don't have to operate a business Wink I mean, if it's *such* a gross violation of your freedom... You don't mind that the government makes laws that protect society, like "No robbing people", despite that it does somewhat restrict your allowed actions, what is so hard to accept about this minor law that protects a small part of society from a bunch of dicks? The restriction is not even to you, the restriction is to the business - you can do as you like as a private individual, just, if you own a business then the business has to follow laws about how it operates and "no discrimination" happens to be one.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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